Goblin Debate~ Closing Soon!

Welcome to a new term! I hope to kick things off with a heated discussion. In DH we learned of the goblins deep-rooted anger with the wizarding community. The sword of Gryffindor is claimed on both sides, but who does it really belong to? Are the Goblins merely greedy or have they been mistreated by wizards that have a history of enslaving magical beings they see as inferior(i.e. house elfs)? Do the Goblins have any claim on the items they have made and then sold?


This class is worth up to 50 points. In this debate focus on the known history of the Goblins and wizards to fuel your arguments. I am not asking you to stick to one side or the other, if you are able to see both sides then I want to hear them. If you are using a source other than your own memory then please remember to site it.

Good luck, and let the debate begin!




10 housepoints have been awarded to Just_Ginny for her suggestion!

I agree with you Agatha. If goblins get paid to work how can it be considered enslavement. Also they make stuff for others to use, thats what they do. If you build and don't have a use for the item, then sell it and make some money off it. And after your paid don't try going and saying "I made it I want it back". It doesnt work that way.

Also there is the fact of Goblins who didn't make the thing, but by another goblin and saying "Oh this is goblin-made it is rightfully mine." That just isn't right. Thats like me walking up to some person in a foreign country and saying "Nice American-made car. I am an American so its now mine." As much as it would be awesome to get a free car I cant do that.

Very interesting discussion! Thanks for posting it, Kate, and thanks for suggesting it, Caro!

I have to disagree with the two of you about some things. After all, a good debate isn't good without some opposing views, right?

It is of my opinion that goblins are mistreated by a large group of the wizarding world, in the same sense that centaurs, house elves, and other "creatures" governed by the Ministry of Magic's Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures. If we look to the fountain (*) that was previously in the Atrium of the Ministry of Magic, it shows the goblin, the centaur, and the house-elf looking up longingly at the wizard and witch -- that scene makes me laugh, because it's just another of the Ministry's sense of superiority to all things.

We know that the goblins tried to rebel several times and I feel it's obvious as to why. But if we look to the definition of the word rebellion (noun 1 an act of rebelling against an established government or ruler. 2 defiance of authority or control.**) we can see that they were obviously trying to rebel against the Ministry which puts them down so much.

I don't think everyone feels the same way towards goblins, however. Two of these wise people that were supporters were Albus Dumbledore and Remus Lupin, may they both rest in peace. For one, Dumbledore spoke Gobbledegook. *** That shows, I feel, that he was dedicated enough to learn their language, which is described as being very tough to understand. With Lupin, I quote the following passage from Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. ****

Quote :

'They're not giving anything away yet,' said Bill. 'I still can't work out whether or not they believe he's back. Course, they might prefer not to take sides at all. Keep out of it.'

'I'm sure they'd never go over to You-Know-Who,' said Mr Weasley, shaking his head. They've suffered losses too; remember that goblin family he murdered last time, somewhere near Nottingham?'

'I think it depends what they're offered,' said Lupin. 'And I'm not talking about gold. If they're offered the freedoms we've been denying them for centuries they're going to be tempted. Have you still not had any luck with Ragnok, Bill?'

'He's feeling pretty anti-wizard at the moment,' said Bill, 'he hasn't stopped raging about the Bagman business, he reckons the Ministry did a cover-up, those goblins never got their gold from him, you know -'

Obviously, Lupin understood the feeling of being left out by the authority and this proves he knows exactly how the goblins felt.

As far as the issue with the goblins and the treasures that they create, which they feel they should get back... I'm a bit more mixed about that one. Part of me thinks that it was just the injustice over the centuries that makes goblins greedy, but part of me thinks that they aren't always paid that well for their work.

Can't wait for more people to join in!

Sources:
*: https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/img210/6600/c07theministryofmagicebao4.jpg
**: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/orexxbellion?view=uk
***: http://www.bloomsbury.com/harrypotter/content.asp?sec=3&sec2=1
****: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/goblins.html

I agree with a lot of the things you guys have said, but you have all been talking about goblins as if they were humans. So I have to step in and remind you all--THEY ARE NOT. They see the world in a COMPLETELY different way than wizards do.

They are very good at their craft, it is their way of life. It is the only thing they love doing. When they've finished crafting a sword, crown etc., they are emotionally attached to it. One could even go so far as to say that it becomes almost like their child, they love it with all their heart and soul.

Can you ever really sell something you are that emotionally attached to? You will always wonder how it is doing, if it is being well taken care of, etc. Even if wizards pay as much as the goblins ask, it is not enough. It is never enough.

I also think that the goblins feel that wizards do not appreciate them enough. The wizards take the goblins and their craft somewhat for granted. Well, of course they've made a beautiful, nearly indestructible sword. That's what they were SUPPOSED to do. That's what they WANTED to do.

This is all fine and well by the goblins, but they want the wizards to be in awe of each goblin-made piece anew. The goblins never take their craft for granted. They love every single thing they make, and are angry at the wizards for not sharing this love.

Is this a valid reason for them to hate wizards? Probably not. The goblins need to be more open-minded, but then so do wizards on many issues.

I think the way the goblins feel about property somewhat parallels to how Native Americans felt about land (sorry if you're not American and/or familiar with the reference.) For instance, the native Americans "sold" Manhattan for $24. However, they did not understand the culture the European settlers had developed. Native Americans, as a peripatetic group of people, shared and roamed the land as they followed prey/food. There is a good chance goblins feel the same way about goblin-made items. They don't necessarily mind sharing such items with humans as long as they are returned. The lack of proper expedience in return of such items definitely causes much of the anger the goblins have.

Goblins have definitely been condescendingly treated in terms of their intelligence. For instance, in the ministry, the fountain of Magical Brethen shows creatures generally portrayed as inferior to humans (a centaur, a goblin, and a house-elf) looking up and admiring witches and wizards. Plus, the fact that they can almost completely control Gringotts and thus the wizard economy shows an intelligence that at many times outweighs humans. Referencing Justin's fantastic quotation, goblins have fewer rights than wizards but most have more intelligence than some humans. This example definitely portrays a lack of sense in the system.

So, if you want to take a European standpoint on the sword of Gryffindor, Harry rightfully owns the sword. If you prefer a goblin point of view, the goblins as a community own the sword. Either way, many witches and wizards as well as the ministry do not treat goblins with due respect.

Works Cited
"Goblins." HPL: Goblins. 29 Oct. 2006. 21 Aug. 2007 <http://www.hp-lexicon.org/bestiary/goblins.html>.

stephy wrote:

Goblins only think that way because that was what they where taught. Wizards never really took the time to tell them otherwise.

Even if the wizards WOULD try to explain, the goblins would probably just see this as another way of wizards attempting to assert control over them. Goblins do not want to live their life any other way. No one wants to be told how to live their life, and everyone thinks that they are right while the others are hopelessly wrong.

I really liked Kendra's parallel to the Native Americans. I would like to add onto this that the Native Americans were tricked many times by the colonists into selling land for much cheaper than what it was worth. At times they were tricked into giving it away for free, or even worse, dying in a war over it. This has led me to wonder if perhaps centuries ago, when wizards first started appreciating goblin skills, wizards might have stolen or killed goblins to lay hands on their precious crafts.

Some of you said that the grudge the goblins hold for wizards may be something that's passed down throughout generations. I agree with this, but would like to say that I understand completely. Just as there is a wizarding fear and lack of understanding and grudge against all werewolves and giants because they have hurt wizards in the past, and just because they are - well, scary - there is a goblin grudge against wizards. This also ties in with what Bookie said about Remus: He can understand how the goblins feel because he can relate to unfair prejudice.

I have also started wondering now if perhaps it might also be an issue about the ruling class. Wizards obviously have the upper hand in the Wizarding world. Wizards are the rulers, the lawmakers, they have the last word. They don't really care about what the goblins (or centaurs, merpeople and other intelligent beasts) think. Most wizards are interested only in themselves as a ruling class. While the centaurs seem to be fine with this, because they consider wizards beneath them anyway and would never lower themselves to be bothered with all the wizarding problems, perhaps goblins would like to be included in wizarding affairs.

Ohh another inspirational flash: It's not really about the sword, or crown or whatever. Okay, it is, but it's more about BELONGING. Hear me out before you roll your eyes!

If wizards would completely include goblins in everything, to the point where goblins became an integral part of wizarding society, there would be no obvious distinction between wizards and goblins. Yes, they are already part of the society, what with Gringotts and such. But still, wizards think of them as beneath them. The concept of Feudalism vaguely applies here. Wizards give goblins work, and a place in their society, but they still do not make an effort to really understand or care about them. And this, in my opinion, is why goblins hate wizards, and begrudge them their goblin-made things, even after they've paid for them.

I agree with Streams. Like Hermione said in the kitchen of Grimmauld Place when Harry was questioning Kreacher. She said they don't think that way. And she is correct. Kreacher was thinking that since he was getting praise and affection it was the right thing to do. He was pleasing his masters or mistresses. House-elves think in ways of pleasing people.

Goblins on the other hand think about treasure and the pride of their species and work. They are much more arrogant, and concerned with material things. It is there trade and job to make things and they are ingrained with the concept what they make is theres.

I do not think it is theres, however. I agree that they have no claim over the item once it is sold, but I also don't think they are being greedy. They have been opressed but I also don't think they really want to be involved with wizards even tho both species needs eachother

I agree with alot of the things said. I do not believe that goblins have the right to the items they sell. If you sell something, it is no longer yours. You have no rights to the item.
Wizards have treated them rather horribly, but I think the goblins are rather selfish and arrogant.

I think it's sort of nonsensical that the only say they have in the economic system is the printing of wizard money. I mean, if you think about it, our wizarding money wouldn't be nearly as strong without the goblin's metal-casting ability. They must feel a certain animosity to the whole economic system, as many undervalue their aid in the creation of coins. A reason they refuse to adopt the idea of purchasing could be that they feel such anger in the ministry's decision to put them in Gringotts. Were they really even given a choice?

(...i loved it xD)

anyways *becca jumps in*

Humans ARE selfish. As been proved with some of the posts...references to the land arguments with the Native Americans and with Rai's reference to the Egyptian items scattered around...all because we want what we want, and if we don't get what we want, we do EVERYTHING in our power to get it. Even if it means disrupting any peace that was there!

Quote :

Men! And their sense of rightfulness! Arrogant that’s what we are! Why do we always have to make others understand our point of view? Why do we always think our way of lives is the best? Why couldn’t the way of live of others be the best? Why can’t we put ourselves in other shoes?

EXTREMELY true. Why, for once, can we, the humans, put ourselves into the other creatures shoes? Why can't we take a step down and try to understand their point of veiw, instead of trying to sway them into agreeing with us, understanding us. It is not all about us.

On that note. I also agree that once the Goblin's sell what they've made, it is not theirs anymore. End of that. If they want it back, they need to get it back fair and square.

Quote :

So on that note the only thing I have to add to everyone’s very well made points would be that I feel the Ministry should make a point of getting together with the goblins and having each side explain their customs and whatnot.

Just because they get together and explain their customs, it does not
guarantee that either side will respect the laid out customs! Can you imagine, someone just explaining something and the other side really, truely, just like that, respecting the others point of veiw! The world would be a much better place if that could really happen.

Quote :

Of course wizards would have to accept goblins (and all creatures for that matter) as equals and goblins would have to be willing to give them a chance to make up for their mistreatment.

Again, can you really imagine that? Even today, there are STILL people who look down upon people who are different. If this is happening, how could wizards so easily accept the Goblins as equals when then they have obviously been mistreated and easily pushed aside for years? How do you suppose the wizards could make up for their mistreatment? Are they going to let them into the government? Even after years of that, the Goblins would STILL remember the mistreatment that they'd endured for so many years before. As stated in a post before mine, Goblins have longer memories than we do, just new job or two for them to do, a few new laws, can't erase the mistreatment that they had to endure.

Now that with that note.....*moves on*

Quote :

I really don't believe goblins have any claim what so ever to the items they make. No more so than a baker has claim to every loaf of bread he bakes...or a farmer to every crop he sows. Being craftsmen is their profession. Atleast goblins are paid for their services...they could be house elfs.

yes! (not to sound all greedy and be all 'stupid human' after the previous parts of my post...) but Goblins also need to be at least slightly appreciative of what they DO already have. Even if they want more, they also need to take a minute and realize what their life COULD be. If humans didn't pay them, need their skill for things besides being a personal slave, they could end up just like the houseleves. With mindsets that are 'We live to serve." The Goblins do need to take that into consideration as they want more and more.

Again i will say, they have no claim after something they made is sold. Once it's gone, it's gone. Too bad. You want it back that bad, go buy it back.

-Becca.-

Ahem. A very nice tirade Rai has going there, but I must step in and say that goblins, too are quite arrogant. Who are they to think that humans must respect their customs and wishes? Do they respect the HUMAN traditions and customs? Do goblins make even the slightest effort to understand humans? No. They don't.

They have no interest in getting along well with the humans, but they've grudgingly realized that the humans have need of their skills. This pleases their pride and self-worth, and that is probably why they do not simply ignore us humans, like the centaurs do.

And I have to agree with Becca that there is no simple solution. To fix this problem could take hundreds of years, each generation making one tiny change. People do not change overnight, neither do goblins. To assume that a simple explanation of customs could result in a peaceful, happy and productive relationship between man and goblin makes no sense at all. If we were able to do that, there would be no more war or bloodshed. There would be world peace and no more criminals.

Goblins will never get along with humans unless they want to, and oh, they DON'T want to. They want to be on the top. They want to completely reverse roles with humans. It seems to me they have been trying to do this for thousands of years. And quite obviously, they have not yet succeeded.

The case of goblins and wizards definately not a matter of learning each others customs and each party trying to assimilate into different aspects of the others worlds. The magical world is dealing with a serious case of prejudices that go thousands of years back. As Hermione pointed our in Deathly Hallows they have no way of knowing whether Godric Gryffindor stole the sword or if he rightfully laid claim to it. There is no way of knowing which party started what problem, and in some ways it seems that the goblins are a great deal more stubborn than wizards in that regard. They demand that wizards know, respect, and understand their customs, with total disregard for the effect they have on the wizarding community. Griphook wouldn't have cared if he knew that Harry needed the sword to destroy the horcruxes he still would've kept it for himself. There is no room for alternate explanations, it has to be their way or no other possibility is open. At the same time, however, wizards are exceedingly arrogant in some ways. The majority of wizards would probably not realize the effect possessing goblin-made items would have upon a goblin, nor would they probably care. It is the few like Bill Weasley who understand goblins and have tried to work out a way to live peacefully. However, neither of these problems can ever really be solved, they are too deep-rooted and complex, with different opinions. Wizards can try to educate themselves and goblins can work harmoniously with wizards in places like Gringotts, but there are few routes to a reconciliation on certain aspects of life like goblin-made tiaras or swords or armor. The customs of goblins and wizards are too opposite and acknowledge different rules of honor and integrity. A wizard wouldn't understand why they should return an heirloom their family rightfully bought because it's goblin-made, and likewise a goblin could never understand why wizards pass along these items with totally indifference to the goblin contribution. It would take an immense amount of cooperation, time, energy, and compromise to solve the problems and prejudices of the goblin/wizard relationship. The future really just depends on whether there are wizards and goblins willing to acknowledge the problems and work extremely hard to mend the fault line between their two races.

Goblins, I suppose, have a differant point of view than me, but I think the idea that if you made something it belongs to you is utter nonsence. To say that would be like someone taking back a necklace that was finely crafted, and that you paid a lot for, back just because they made it. But, I also think that the way that goblins feel about their crafts is also part of the fact that they have been shunned from the right to hold wands. I think that if wizards treated the goblins better, they would be in less danger of losing their prized goblin made possesions, but then again no one knows what a goblin would do with that sort of freedom if it were given to them. I must admit, a wizard hating goblin allowed to hold a wand would be a quite formidable adversary.

The problem is, yes goblins think differently from us, but how can we say our way to think is the right way. What would be ideal is if we could combine a different way of thinking with that of the goblins and come up with a happy medium. Unfortunately I think there is far too much frustration and bitterness on both sides to have that happen anytime soon.

Yes, in case you're wandering I just waffled. Someone has to.

Waffled? ... XD

Anyway, I have a feeling that goblins wouldn't be happy with just equal rights. They might just agree to everything peacefully and be given wands, only to abuse this and begin killing and harming wizards left and right in 'rightful revenge' for their 'stolen heirlooms.' I think goblins want to be the supreme race. I think they wouldn't be happy until wizards were the lower class. And yeah, wizards are not gonna let THAT happen anytime soon.

The goblins are harboring waaay too much resentment and anger, and the wizards care waaaay too little about the situation. They're arrogant, and happy, and at the top. They don't realize that the wizarding regime can be overthrown like any other regime.

To sum up, I'm on everybody's and nobody's side, as usual. XD

Goblins appear to be under the thought that whatever is made by them is permanatly theirs, humans 'buy' the items which appears to be similar to 'renting' the items. Although, I think this is just because the goblins want to get back at humans for maltreatment, of course just like humans goblins have varying points of view not all probably think this way. Sorry that my post isn't going much of anywhere I'm just pointing out some things people may of missed.

As for my ideas on this, I can see both sides very clearly and can't make a decision of who is in the right, so I remain neutral on this. Goblins and humans think very differently and both opinions are valid, people want to possess items for life, but Goblins feel there crafts cannot be bought for eternity both make some sense to me.

Hi, I believe that Goblins should be allowed wands and that goblins under the law, must teach wizards their magic. They should be regarded as equals.

Also, I think that with regards to the whole, buy or rent goblin made armor and swords that if the goblins get money for their makes that they have agreed on with the human/other creature then the goblin has no further claim on it, only that they made it.