Divination debate - CLOSED

Is divination a valid subject? Is it all guess work or are prophecies and tea leaf reading true? Should divination be taught in schools? etc etc...

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the first two members from each house will be selected for the debate, and a new post opened for them to begin their debate. There will be one person from each house on either side of the debate.

sides:
for divination

against divination

please read the announcement within this debate forum. As soon as the two people from each house has signed up, the debate will start!

Hufflepuff: Etta and jennifer williams
Gryffindor: WaterLily and Padfoot Potter
Slytherin: Ashes bo bashes and fated4HP
Ravenclaw: Lilyflower and kitkat

hey i have time on my hands and a big mouth, i'll do this as well, if thats okay
(will step down for nay otehr hufflepuffs if they want)

I can do this!

I sign up too!

hmm padfoots post was here and now it gone - weird - well your on the list anyway padfoot! Just waiting for a few more people before it can start!

ohh..I wanna! I like argueing..lol .. I just wanna try one..so I'm signing up.

Supppppppp I like speeches and I want to join this debate.

Jesse

I'll give this ago - i couldnt get on for the other one and would love a chance to do ravenclaw proud

WHat is the point of Divination?!? It is a bucnch of hullabalooo. All it is is making up lies of what is gonna happen in the future...YEah right!!!!!!!!!! You just scribble down stuff iin a book say you saw some thing and BOOM you pass. All dumb.

Maybe so but you have to think, didn't Trelawny make the prophecy? What about all those other prophecies? They had to be made by someone and so far Harry's has been coming true hasn't it? I mean if it was all just a bunch of junk they why did Voldemort care so much about it? Becuase its true!

That is true but you must remember something Dumbledore said. The prophecy came true BECAUSE of people's actions TO the prophacy, not because it is true. The prophacy about Harry and Voldemort came true because Voldemort (in his quest for immortality) tried to kill Harry thus making him his equal and bringing about his downfall. This is all logical information that could have been avoided if Voldemort reasoned it through. Not that I'm not glad that Voldemort WAS brought down, but the truth is that if he didn't place so much value in this so called "prophecy" there is no gurantee that it would have happened. Therefore it would have just been another "future" that was guessed. If I told you that within a week your house will be in the lead for the housecup, you will obviously try to help the "prophacy" happen, when you could have had that happen with or without the prophacy.

Now I'm not saying that Divination shouldn't be taught in schools. I believe that it should. It's what some people believe in and Divination has been a part of history. However I also believe that it should be more of an elective or so rather then an "actual" class.

Divination. What is? Is it something we feel? Something we touch? smell? see? taste?

NO It isn't. It is about as useless as a broken wand. Let's think about this shall we? We have Divinations class. Why? So we can see little pictures in cups? tea leaves? What is the point?
I will tell you what the point is. Nothing. Divination is nothing more than a mockery of fortune telling. It is not an art. It is not a sport. It is absolutely meaningless. It's simply just another class to waste our time. Many many witches and wizards did not get where they are today by pretending to see little image omens floating around in their cups or even their toilets.
Divination is not a legitimate form of magic. There is too much political issues with it. One can simply use it as a sham. a hoax. Why?

To disrupt the lives of our youth. To exploit things that should not be publicly viewed.
Taking this class frankly appalds me as it is NOT a legitimate class. It is a load of hocus pocus glooky-opus.
As for Trelawny well she is a quack. Plain and simple. She seems to think she can predict the future. Future outcomes.
That is all fine and dandy but there is one problem, my friends. And I argue this strongly.
The Future is forever changing.
We are 'Fated' to live in its mystery. Fated to not know what is coming for a reason.
Who's to say that dabbling in Divination actually helps us at all? For all we know; our dabbling into into to try to see it may indeed cause it to change from what it was to be.

If we are to know the future it would be easy to see for everyone, not just a select few. I just wanted to add that last bit.

If Divination is rubbish as you say, then so is Arithmancy, Astronomy, and many other subjects based on future and stars.

If Dumbledore says that it is choices that make the prophecy, then what about fate?

Prophecies are just fate revealing themselves. Harry would have killed Voldemort anyway. The prophecy just confirmed it.

And if divination is untrue, then how would we know to make our choices? Yes we could try and strategise but if we don't know what will happen then we can't really make our choices...

It's fate and fate can tell what our choices are...and i'm not talking about the three fates in Hercules...i'm talking about God. God knows our fates, what will happen to us...have you never been curious? Can you blame others from being curious about what is planned for us?

I would say this. I do belive in god. But...I think maybe god does not know what is in store for us YET! key word yet. t depends on our actions. Not what a dumb cheapy globe with fog in it says.

But isn't God omniscient? So he knows everything? Yes.

Therefore, he would know our actions and what directions we are going in before we do. So we are simply trying to determine where we are going with our lives. Confused people need guidance in order to become geniuses. Divination is our guidance.

"God does know out lives and future (must disagree with Padfoot on that). Yet HE doesnt approve in future telling and palm readings. If you are going to point out what God feels, then he has our future all planned out for us. We are not MEANT to KNOW the future and change it. If it's meant to be then it's meant to be. Arithmancy is a version of Divination that is more logical with numbers and letters. This doesn't say anything about your future as Divination claims to do. Arithmancy just tells you more about yourself. There are some true Seers in this world. Yet one out of a million every once in a while is not very good odds to actually be taught in school. If it is then talking to snakes should also be taught in school. It's important, it's history."

"You say Harry would have still killed Voldemort because the prophacy said so. How can you prove that? If Voldemort didn't place so much store in the prophacy or if he didnt even hear it, who's to say he would have killed the Potters and Sirius? Giving Harry the strength and determination to try to kill Voldemort? He could have been a normal wizard just like Cedric and Ron. Because Voldemort placed so much importance in the prophacy then it actually happened not because it's true."

Even if your correct, wothout the prophecy Voldemort could still be takeing over. Even if things happen because people base their choices on prophecies it seems to be working well. Without Divination and the prophicies Voldemort could be ruleing the wizarding world as we speak..or type.

Also Dumbledor seemed to want to keep Trelawny at the school, so he must have a reason. When has Dumbledor not had a good reason for everything?

"That would have been an excellent example for my Snape debate last week. Dumbledore has a reason for everything...but thats all over. Yes, I did admit that I don't think it should be taken out of school. I just thought that it should be more an elective rather then one of the core classes to take. We still haven't seen whether or not Voldemort is defeated. The prophacy did not state that he would be defeated (quite convenient). It just said that both of them will be fighting each other and that one cant live if the other survives. Who's to say that the same thing wouldn't have happened without the prophacy? Or maybe something better? I'm not saying Divination is "rubbish" exactly, some wizards prefer it. I'm just stating the facts that life doesn't need it.

What else does life not need? And I'm saying need...not want.

Televisions, hairdryers, microwaves, eckletricity...the list goes on...of course, in the wizarding world, there are countless spells that we don't need - some potions are useless - Swelling solutions? And what about if there were no love potions? The world would be better.

So therefore, even though we may not need divination, we still use it at least as a form of recreation. Students are taught flying at hogwarts for fun, why not divination?

Arithmancy is not logical...it is superstition based on logic. How is it proven that the number 1 means so and so? It is just said that there is only one thing so the person must be single-minded, independant, etc. It is symbolism. So is divination.

If the life line is long, it would logically means that there is a possibility of having a long life. If the heart line is deep, the person has a large capasity to love...

(You guys have a point.)
But how do we know this...if we mess up and see something rong we could be in danger. And if you see something bad haapening to you like getting a broken arm you willl try and make that not happpen. But then you miht die...Just a thought.

Fair enough, divination can be used by those who posses the sight etc, but you are born with this - it is not something that can be taught. What is the point of teaching an unteachable subject to students?
Seers are rare and as I said, it is something you are born with.
Also, how exactly does reading tea leaves help you in the real world? What are you going to do when trying to crack a code to prevent a spell from killing the whole world. You only have 5 minutes - what are you going to do - oh yes "hold on a moment i need a cup of tea!"

Divination is useless in schools!

~Fated takes into account what LilyFlower has just said yet he now approaches the podium with a relaxed subtle expression~My opponent here does bring up some rather interesting things which I myself must address.Divination and Ancient Runes.

Divination has been done through runes BUT how can you be so sure it is precise? How can one know that the things spelled out in this ancient Germanic alphabet is truly an act of divination? Let us take a moment to think about that. The Anglo-Saxons used runes to communicate with each other and it was their alphabet. It was a form of communication and we NEED Ancient runes to learn about this alphabet for today's economy.

Having said that now, I want to argue with your comment on why we should keep Divination. Divination is not a solid course. It is merely a course in which we see little pictures of things that have no relavance what-so-ever. Can you really see the future staring into an inanimate object? Can you really pick up a spoon and as it what tomorrow holds? The spoon can not speek, nor can it hear you. It is not alive. Same thing with a cup. You see for example "the grim". Are you going to actually sell off all of your belongings because your cup said that you were going to die tomorrow?? I truly feel that we are wasting our time in Divination. And while I will agree that it does 'expand' students' minds-it expands them in the Wrong direction. It feeds them with false predictions that in turn can lead to personality distortions. It can cause them to doubt their senses and fall into the whole fortune telling scheme.

I would like to also add that even at this wonderful school; Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, we must all be aware of false prophecies. Yes, I do believe in clairvoyance, but I don't believe that we should try to teach it to every individual. Remember that even if there was truth behind Divination, it won't work for everyone.

And that brings me to this: Why teach something that only a handful of students can get while others are left in the dark? It doesn't sound fair, does it? Remember we are not all pure-blooded witches and wizards here. Many are from muggle-born families and Divination -as Lily said-along with magic doesn't exist to muggles. So why then must we have a class directed only at the Clairvoyant students when in its place we can make a class to benefit us all?
That is all.

: Etta walks slowly in, clutching her side and looking pale, but smiling. Sorry about that i had a run in with my doctors.:

I agree with Fated, it isnt Fair to teach a subject which only a select few can understand, but it is a subject of choice, the students aren't forced to study it, they choose to. If they didnt ant to study the subject then fine, i am sure, if only a few students studied Divination, then teh subject would not be taught, but there are class fulls of students who do want to learn about it.

Just because Dumbledore himself does not find belife in the subject does not mean that it is a waste of time allowing others to learn it, that is after all what Hogwarts is about, learning the differnet things in magic.

*looks point blank at opposing team* Like Lily explained the defination of the subject, there is far more to the subject then predicting the future, it is about learning to look at all of lifes little signs and seeing that they point to something. That is why students chose to learn this subject, so that can have a better undertanding at what things mean, Divination is about choice and to learn about the subject you must chose first to take it.

:Sits down and yawns, closing eyes slowly and playng with week old kittens:

I personally would love to learn more about a subject which is fasinating to not only witchs and wizards, but to muggles as well. There is more to Divination then one perso can understand on their own.