Will Harry Live or Die? **CLOSED**

Will Harry Live or Die?

Will Harry live to see the end of the series or will he die at the hands of Lord Voldemort?

That's what this debate is about.

As usual, there will be two teams: for and against.

Two members from each house are needed to sign up before the debate can begin. You CANNOT choose which side you will be placed on, so please do not ask.

As soon as we have enough members for the debate, it will start. Sign up in this thread.

SIDES

FOR: Harry will live
AGAINST: Harry will die

PARTICIPANTS

Slytherin
Raistlin the Wizard
delta

Gryffindor
amberg93
The5Potters

Ravenclaw
Lady_Luna
Kit

Hufflepuff
Etta
streams of silver

sign me in! and do not dare to put me in which side!

sign me up

Oooh me me me XD If for nothing else I'll find a way on for this debate XD

OOHH!! this is great!! Sign me up for either side!
I love a good debate!

Rai, delta and amber have been added to the list.

Nancy, I'm sorry but two slytherin's have already signed up and there's a maximim of two per house

Sorry about that.

if there aren't already two gryffindor's count me in!

Two Ravenclaws and two Hufflepuff's are needed and then the debate can begin!

I'm a Ravenclaw; count me in!

i'll take part for hufflepuff

sign me up

Just one more Ravenclaw needed and then the debate can start!

I can try? This is an interesting topic, and it'll be my first time.

Sign ups are completed, the debate can now begin! See the list below for your sides. Remember, the more developed your argument, and the more you post, the higher your number of points will be.

Your sides are as follows:

FOR: Harry will live

Raistlin the Wizard debating for Slytherin
The5Potters debating for Gryffindor
Kit debating for Ravenclaw
Streams of Silver debating for Hufflepuff

AGAINST: Harry will die

delta debating for Slytherin
amberg93 debating for Gryffindor
Lady_Luna debating for Ravenclaw
Etta debating for Hufflepuff

Good Luck, and let the debate begin!

To get started:
Some reason's y Harry's got a good chance of living:

1) he has support from the Order and he has the DA
2) He's not all that stupid and he's good in battle
3) he's got the power that Voldy can not stand at all (love)

First, let us examine the prophecy that binds Harry Potter and Tom Riddle.

Quote :

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

By the wording of the prophecy, we see that Harry Potter is the only one who can vanquish the dark lord. Harry Potter was already marked as the Dark Lord's equal by two ways: first, the lightning bolt scar on Harry's forehead, and second, by using Harry's blood in his ressurection. Therefore, it must be Harry that is mentioned in the prophecy. Not only is Harry Tom Riddle's equal, Harry also has a power that the Dark Lord knows not, for example, the power of love, friendship, and undying loyalty.

For the wording that says that "neither can live while the other survives," we see that Harry Potter still has a life to live afterwards. While Tom Riddle is still alive, Harry Potter cannot truly live his life, especially since he must always be aware of the dangers around him. Tom Riddle must always fight against Harry and can never reach his full potential.

Furthermore, Harry Potter follows the usual Campbell hero-journey cycle. At the end of the cycle, the hero, Harry Potter, will have to return to his home, whether in the magical or in the muggle world.

However, most importantly, the Harry Potter series is a children's book. It is mostly read for entertainment of young children in elementary to middle school. If Harry Potter's death is featured in the seventh book, its popularity would greatly fall. Children do not like reading about their heroes dying. Although the typical losses occured, such as Harry's mentors, which follows the hero's journey, the hero must survive for the series to be a competent children's novel.


Hero's Journey cycle: http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~sparks/heroj.html

You say the Hero MUST survive for this to be a competent children's novel, would you care to be the one to tell JK Rowling what she can and can't do with her own characters, plot etc?

Now moving away from that i would like to point out to two things.

1. Like i have already said this is JK's novel, these are her characters and from my own writing experience i feel that in order to allow a story to rest, to end where its supposed to end, o close all doors to temptation of "just one more" i have to kill me main character and in order for JK to move forward she MAY feel that same way, the only way to put Harry Potter to bed is to push him off his perch.

2. The Prophecy ... We lay to much in this, we study it too closely to see the actual simple information. "neither can live while the other survives" Personally i look upon that simple part of the prophecy and think (after having read HBP) that perhaps this refers to a Horcrux, perhaps those who say Harry is in fact a Horcrux (i prefer to think it was just his scar) could be on the right track.

We don't know enough about Horcruxes to answer the millions questions we all have, mine for example is can two pieces of soul, from 2 separate ppl survive in one person? Because if Harry is or his scar is a horcrux then part of Voldies soul lies with him, but he already has a soul.

And that brings me on to my next point, Voldielocks, technically isn't really living, yes he walks, hisses (he doesn't really talk anymore unless its to shout) breaths, not sure what he eats if anything, but he's savaged his own soul, a person can not truly be alive with only a 7th of their soul (from how i understand the soul works this is my conclusion.)So, in order for him to be MORTAL we know Harry needs to destroy the horcruxes, which maybe return Voldies soul to him, i dont know, but go with me on that for a moment, because with all Horcruxes destroyed, Voldies soul kinda bk, him mortal again, someone else can finish off the job because Harry will already be dead.

"but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not." The power of love yada yada yada. A few ppl believe that something will happen to Ginny in order to force this maginifcant power from Harry and boom, he pushes Voldielocks off his perch - i once read somewhere that Harry would Rigby tackle Voldielocks through th veil and i adored this theory except its too simple anyway bk on to what i was saying!

I however believe that the kind of Love which is so often referred to, the kind of love which force Harry into doing a Dumbledore, is Love for his friends and family, a love for everything he knew, a love for those who he lost, a selfless love *is singing My Endless Love now*

By doing a dumbledore - Dumbledore ordered Snape to kill him in order to save him and Draco, he sacrificed himself to save another, will 2 others, thats the kind of man Dumbledore is and once Harry understands this he will understand how to push Voldielocks off his perch.

Which brings me k to the whole destroy horcrux - gives voldie some soul *giggles* thingy. If Harry is or his scar is, then maybe the only way to free Voldies soul is to in fact push himself off his perch, Dumbledore style. Allowing Snapeypoo to come riding in on his big bad broomstick and save the world :D

And if i am completely wrong then meh, Harry will die because of reason one, although i am very proud of myself for reason two ONE HUNDRED POINTS TO HUFFLEPUFF!!!!!

etta, question. How in the heck is Harry a horcrux???? and if so, couldn't u kill the horcrux part, no destroy harry himslef?

well Becca, im not saying Harry is a horcrux, i was going along with the theory that he may be one.

Because w eodnt understand how to destroy a horcrux, other then stabbing it with a poison fang (CoS) im guessing that the thing which keeps the horcrux will need to be destroyed because Dumbledore isnt there to be careful and Harry will be in a hurry. Also, if say Harry is ahorcrux, can two souls survive in one body? me thinks not, look at OotP when Voldielocks possesed Harry, Voldie couldnt survive in Harry because his soul, his emoution and his heart were too powerful, now say he is a horcrux, could he take his time in destroying the horcrux part or would he sacrifice himself for the good of the wizarding world, trusting in another to take down Voldie? I think he'd trust someone else and chose to die, after all he shows many traits of Dumbledore and his MOTHER who died to save him.

*silence* hmmm... but voldermort can't stand love. That's why he couldn't stand the emotion in Harry's soul.

Its not that he cant stand love, he's just never known it, theres abig difference.

Because he hasnt known love he underestimates it, like he did the night he killed the Potters.

when all the horcruxez are destroyed it only makes voldemort mortal they will still have to kill him and if harry's a hrocrux and sacrifices himself then who'd be left to kill voldemort?

etta, remember "Niether can Lie while the other survies" one of them is going to die and harry is not the one who's gunna die! He had way too much going to help him...

potter is right (ouch) one of them will have to die and it will be voldemort
it's what we were led to beleive the through all the books
voldemorts many flaws such as greedy, lack of love will be his doom!

I agree with what kit said about Harry Potter being primarily a children's book. If JK would make Harry die, this would be a bad moral lesson for all children reading the book. Children need to be encouraged that good will always prevail, even if that is not necessarily always the case in real life. So JK has to make him live to fit into the criteria for a children's book.

There would be a huge drop in popularity and probably the sales of the book if JK made Harry die. Why on earth would she want to do that?

First off, please bring me some proof to back up your ideas, i on the otehr hand already have and should you wish to not re-read it carefully, i will not repost it. :nahnah:

Okay, Rai in answer to your question, Snape.

Becca please surply me with SOMETHING to back up your thoughts.

Rai again, all the way up to bok 5 we were led to believe Snape is evil and that what he said about James was all lies and that he sopmehow deserved to be bullied, yet in book five we see a different side to James, a glance look at Snapes childhood, one which i can personally understand, and then in book he killed Dumbledore, on the old goats orders, buut still my point being, you put too much faith into what the books lead you to believe, only to be shown how wrong it could all be, James Potter bullied Snape because he wanted to, not because he deserved it, Dumbledore trusted Snape and IMO asked him to perform the task of murder because he knew Draco couldnt do it, and thats what brings me back to Harry.

Harry has Dumbledores traits, ive said once before already, he loves everyone around him past and present, he, like Dumbledore will die for the good of the cause, to ensure that Voldielocks is defeated, personally i believe both will be killed, but we aint talking about voldielocks, we're talking about Harry.

Streamers, just because Harry dies doesnt mean bad will win, but the reason behind why she may kill him is simple, if she didnt she'd be tempted to continue to writing as i have ALREADY said in my first post.

NEXT!

no way jk will give snape such honar as to kill the dark lord! that's just not possible as snape's not good!

OMG etta NO Harry has some Dumbledore traits but as far as saying that he would be willing to die or atmmleast as willing dumbledore was, is just umm a bit crazy...

Aslo, yeah kit made a good point. That would be a really bad moral lesson

we r not debatnig if snape is good or evil this sis about Harry and i personally believe that she will give him the oppertunity, because he needs to redeem himself, to prove he is on the side of good, now just because you cant argue why Harry will live doesnt mean u can start a snape debate, we've already one!

you don't know the things i can do

and no way harry'd ever give snape a chance!

What if Harry had no choice? If he had to trust snape?

Come on guys your all boring me, wher eis your proof? None of you are backing up your theories! GIve me something to read atleast.

who needs proof! we can feel it in our guts!
besides harry's hatred for snape is bad even when he saw him being "beaten" he still hated him even if he'd slitghly pitty him

okay ettie. no need to start throwing insults. you gave a reason why you think JK might want harry to die, and I gave a reason why she might want him to live. I don't see how I could back that up any further. Moving on:

The prophecy clearly states that either MUST die at the hand of the other. It also states that Harry is the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord. Now obviously only Harry has the power to kill Voldemort. If Harry does not kill him, V. will go on to take over the world, killing all Muggles and Muggleborns. Even if this were NOT a children's book, that is quite a dire ending.

Now etta, you said that Harry might be a horcrux and therefore have to kill himself. But when the horcrux in the diary was destroyed, the diary itself remained. So if Harry got rid of the Horcrux inside him, perhaps his scar would disappear, perhaps he would be severely hurt or disabled or even in a coma for a while; but he would not necessarily die.

first off i wasnt throwing insults, i even checked with Amy

Secondly, this si what i'm talking about :D now, like iev already said, harry is a living person where as the diary wasnt, we dont know how a horcrux inside another living breathing person can be destroyed, which still leaves open the possiblity for HArry to just push himself off his perch.

These are dark books, and we know the last book will be the darkest of them all. Yes the prophecy does state that eitehr MUST die blah blah blah but like Dumbeldore said, prophecys dont alwasy come true, Voldielocks acted on the part info which Snape gave him *gags Rai for a moment* setting the prophecy into action but whats to say that Harry changes it, by killing himself he proves the prophecy incorrect *dies since she is mad about Divination* therefore changing the course of the unknown, which people do every day withut knowing it, so, Harry a hrocrux, he pops his clogs in some way shape or form, but not until ALL forcruxes have ben destroyed, leaving the way for another to complete the task, If Voldielocks has no horcruxes then he is mortal, leaving him weak and vulnerable, if someone else says the killing curse, he dies, but at teh hands of Harry for it was Harry who destroyed the horcruxes before popping his clogs.


*breaths*

lol okay.

I don't think anyone could kill voldemort even after all his horcruxes were destroyed. even though he wouldn't be operating with a full soul, he is still one powerful wizard.

and harry has some power that 'the dark lord knows not' meaning that even though V's power is very advanced, there is still some way in which harry can triumph over him. So it is harry who needs to kill voldemort, and no one else.

the power which harry has is love, his love for everyone gah im not repeating myself its all in my first post.

ohhkay, this is something I've been wondering for a while. where in the books does JK say that the power is love?

i'll be kind and point you towards the OotP just after Sirius pops his cloggs and Dumbledore is talking to harry about the prophecy and again i think if i remember correctly in HBP.

thank you ettie. *smiles* okay, I just checked OOtP, and there DD says that harry's strength is that he can feel pain. and he says that it is harry's heart that saves him. there are many emotions felt in the heart, not just love.

anyway, considering that the power IS love, then it is still harry who has to kill Voldemort. Because harry was denied love for so long, that when he finally met some people like sirius or his friends that he was able to love, he didn't take them for granted and loved them to the utmost of his ability. So on the love scale, Harry and voldemort would be on opposite sides completely, which would be a reason why only Harry could kill voldemort.

yup but it can also mean that Harry like Dumbledore, cares about his fmaily and friends enough to die for the, which he does because he's trying to stop voldielocks which brings me bk to my point that Harry will pop his clogs in a selfless act in order to save them.

but if harry kills himself there will be no one left with the degree of love necessary to vanquish voldemort! *sob*

but if harry kills himself out of love, we wont need someone with that same degree *hands over a tissue* think of what Lily's sacrifice did for Harry, there is more to her sacrifce then we know and this i believe will be revealed in the 7th book, it should (hopefully adn stopp me if i ramble) show Harry that dying is not a cowardsly thing to do, its a major atc of love if your doing it for the right reasons. Hence why i strongly believe he'll pop his cloggs to save everyone.

okay, that makes sense, but don't you think that if Harry in essence kills himself by killing the horcrux inside him, there would be some cowardly stake in that? after all many of the people he loved or wishes he could have known are dead. I am sure he has considered dying just so that he could be with all those people again.

and there is no proof of this: but if his friends die in the war, during the 7th book, harry may want to kill himself purely for selfish reasons, so that he could be with them again. which would twist JK's plot quite horribly, because then harry would be killing himself for the wrong reasons, to be with the people he loves rather than to kill voldemort... so then she would have to keep him alive.

lol *reads over post* did that second bit make sense?

i think it made sense *re-reads it again* i will emphasize the think bit

true some part of Harry could have that one selfish thought, but i think when it comes down to the crunch he will act on whats in his heart, which we have already established as the power blah blah blah. He will act for the love of his friends and family in the belief that without him alive, they will survive and go on to live normalish lives.

Lets not forget the valuable question which Dumbledore asks Harry (me no remember which book its in sowwi) he asks him something along the lines of even without the prophecy would you still kill Voldielocks and Harry says yes.

HE'd kill him because Voldielcoks was the one who took away his parents, he is the one who stopped him from feeling the love of growing up with them in his care and at the end of the day Harry is just PO with Voldielocks.

By destroying the horcruxes, Harry is making Voldielocks something which he hates, he;s making hi mortal and vulnerable. We know Harry can take on Voldielocks and walk away with his life he has done 3 times already, but this time, the final battle, neither will work away with their lives, they'll both die.

And then someone like me, a lobely mad insane yet sensible and adorable seer, will make a prophecy about how neither can rest in peace whilst the other rests in peace and so on it goesssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.


*now resembles Proffsor Trewlawny with mad hair and big eyes* have i lost the plot?

now you guys have all lost me... let me just say now that its really hard to argue for a side you don't really believe in.

anywayz, back to the topic. Harry as a horocrux. This is highly possible, but i doubt it. After all, you have to destroy a horocrux, not take out the soul, or whatever. Also, a horocrux is damaging in and of itself. The ring is essentially what kills Dumbledore already, because he had to dismantle it. To destroy a horocrux, it seems that you have to take a life as well. After all, we never hear from RAB again, and to create a horocrux, you need to kill someone. So reverse engineer it, obviously someone cannot come back to life, but maybe someone close to the destroyer must die. um... furthermore, as someone said earlier, if harry's the crux, then voldie can't die, because harry's the only one who can kill him... and it just goes on and on...

Okay, now I've just had a thought about the horcrux that may or may not be a part of Harry. I think we are forgetting that this horcrux isn't an essential part of Harry. If he has a horcrux contained within, it is something that was forced onto him after he was born, supposedly during that confrontation with Voldemort.

He has his own soul, and therefore his own life and personality. So if he destroys the horcrux within him and by doing so makes it possible for Voldemort to be killed, he still wouldn't have to sacrifice his life, because he CAN live without the horcrux. His personality may change a bit without that extra bit of soul, but remember he lived for over a year as a fully functioning normal child. He has his own soul and does not need the horcrux for survival. so even if he killed the horcrux, he would not be killing himself, and he would live! *raises fist triumphantly*

OOOO good streams! *agrees with kit* 'tis very hard to argue something you don't believe in.

Like streams said, the horcrux wouldn't be his soul. He would just have to kill the horrux- not himself

lol *gives everyone cookies and huggles for none existent team mates* streamers if i can get you to admit snape is good i can get you to admit im right on harry dying in some way shape or form

Now, Harry horcrux thingy, it doesn't have to be in his soul, many believe its his scar, but anyways, what i am saying is that 2 souls cant survive in the same body, one always out does the other like in OotP when Voldie couldnt posses Harry Harry won for two reasons, he has a full soul and Voldie hates pure emotion.

Now, if Harry can not find a way of destroying the Horcrux without killing himself what will he do? Leave it and pray for the best? He'd rather have Voldielocks mortal and vulnerable to death then to live himself so he'd poof himself off the face of existence.

On another note, since ive been working on something for Div ive been looking at Trewlawneys prophecies and the small things she has said over the last 4 books, no matter how small, she's always been right. And she has told Harry many a tie he will die, *waves at the annoyed looking Harry*

And if by some sheer genius of luck he lives well, i'll push Harry off the cliff! *sits down and pulls out a bottle of butterbear*

On a final note *gulps down drink nd opens PoA and clears throat*

"The Falcon ... you my dear have a dealdly enemy" no guesses for who that is :D
"The club ... an attack" yup we see plenty of those over the course of these books.
"The skull ... danger in your path" well naturally since he has a dangerous task to undertake in Deathly Hollows and finally
The Grim "Death" now, if book 7 is to mirror book 3 like book 6 did 2 etc we can expect death, everyones death if Voldie gets his own way *gives Voldielocks a teddy bear and sends him off to Elfie for a big huggle* But my point is this: this is Harrys tea cup, his tea leaves, his future, the Grim in book 3 may have overlooked as being Sirius and death simply being well anyone but like i said this is harrys cup and everything so far has HAPPENED TO HIM and so Death will also fall upon him, be it by his own hand/wand or someone else, he is soooo gonna die.

hehee etta, take advantage with the 'snape is good' thingy, because as soon as I finish my fic I will not listen to another word of that argument. and this debate is not about whether harry will die someday an old man in his bed. because obviously everyone will, unless they're living off some potion or spell. :nahnah:

Now, you just said that two souls can not survive in the same body. If this is true, then how is harry surviving with the horcrux for all these years? That would mean that either harry is in fact NOT a horcrux, or it would mean that 2 souls cannot survive together, but a soul and a horcrux separated from its soul can.

And you still haven't given a reason why Harry would have to kill himself to kill the horcrux. He can survive perfectly well without the horcrux. And as I said earlier, if the horcrux requires a very powerful spell to remove it, it still wouldn't necessarily kill harry. we do not know much about how souls are destroyed. there is no proof that a horcrux was ever destroyed with the killing spell.

when you think about it, even the killing spell doesn't exactly destroy souls. it simply removes them from the mortal body. so we don't know if avada kedavra would work, because perhaps that would simply allow the horcrux to escape, and there is no guarantee that voldemort will not find this bit of soul somehow and put it into a more secure place.

And yes, the things trelawney have said always came true, but with a slight twist. she says that harry will die...fine. but doesn't everyone die someday? if harry dies when he is ninety, her prophecy will have come true. that is why the whole divination thing is so iffy.

of course snape is good... i'll find proof eventually... and if he is shown to be evil in the last book... well... i'll kidnap him and kiddify him and keep him.


onto the debate.

Just because I say that snape is good does not mean that harry will die.

Streams of silver already got most of it down..

For Trelawny's stuff... We all agree that the grim represents siri, rite? Cuz that's what you just said earlier. Therefore, grim not mean death. Now look at the other ones you quoted.

"The Falcon ... you my dear have a dealdly enemy" --Voldemort
"The club ... an attack" -- NO really?
"The skull ... danger in your path" -- who does she think she's talking to? geezes

These are general comments ... except maybe the first, and everyone knows about the first. nowhere does it say in these that harry will die... other than trelawny's daily warnings of "you will die soon." plus, what is "soon"? to flamel, soon might be in 100 years, who knows!