Is Snape Good or Bad - CLOSED

The question that provokes more discussions than any other: Is Snape good or bad? Yes, it's time for another Snape debate :D

There will be two teams: for and against.

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There will also be a special guest debater for this debate!

As soon as we have enough members for the debate, it will start. Sign up in this thread.

SIDES

FOR: Snape is good
AGAINST: Snape is bad

PARTICIPANTS

Gryffindor
The5Potters
KatieBellaTrix

Slytherin
Snapes_girl
Raistlin the Wizard

Hufflepuff
Etta
Dancingsunset

Ravenclaw
Kit
LilyFlower

MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! please

Sign me up!

I try and do this one

OOOOOOO sign me up pwease!!!

yessssssssssssssssss

Sign me up please! I would love to represent Slytherin!!

if this turn to be another disater like the last debate i'll reite myself from debating!

anyway sing me in!

sign me up!!!!

OMG SIGN ME UP! (hopes for sev good hope hope hope)

Just one more Ravenclaw needed and this debate can start when the other one ends

Sign ups complete, the debate can begin! See the list below for your sides. Remember, the more developed your argument, and the more you post, the higher your number of points will be. There is a maximum of 50 points available per person.

Your sides are as follows:

FOR: Snape is good

The5Potters debating for Gryffindor
Snapes_girl debating for Slytherin
Etta debating for Hufflepuff
Kit debating for Ravenclaw

PLUS our special guest debater Elfie Dumbledore

AGAINST: Snape is bad

KatieBellaTrix debating for Gryffindor
Raistlin the Wizard debating for Slytherin
Dancingsunset debating for Hufflepuff
LilyFlower debating for Ravenclaw

Good Luck everyone, let the debate begin!

I truley believe that Snape is bad. He KILLED Dumbldore. I dont care if he made any unbreakable vows, i would have rather dies than kill another person. It shows that he is pure hearted and that he can do acts of evil. He betrayed Lily and James, I dont care what sob story he came up with.. he ended up killing them, and proably intentionally.

Snape is good, he's just misunderstood.

After reading the last book and discovering he killed DD i was shocked but then i remembered something DD said, Death is just the next great adventure. DD did not fear death, he looked forward to it, simply because he knew he had done all he could. on top of that DD was not a selfish man, he would rather die himself then lose two innocent lives.

As for the potters, we learnt in HBP that Snape overheard the WHOLE prophecy even if trewlawney doesnt know she made one, she remembered everything going all funny and the next thing she knew snape had been found listening in, yet for a man who was oh so LOYAL to VOLDIELOCKS, why did he deliever only HALF the prophecy? Because he was already working for DD at the time.

Just because a person makes a few mistakes, chooses badly, does not mean they were bad, if that were the case we would all be going straight to hell.

Ok, Death is not a "mistake" he chose to kill Dumbldore, and I refuse to accept your opinion that DD wanted to die. No he didnt! he wouldn't do that to Harry, or to the Order. They needed him. The Spinner's End chapter also offers plenty of proof

Sanpe is bad, how can anyone over look that? He's been evil from the start, why else would he have joined the Deatheaters in the first place? He made a choice just like he made a choice to Kill DD, it was his actions that caused many people to die, he's a murder and we can't over look that!

Firstly – yay I get to debate!

Secondly, where to start!

Let us first take Katie’s statement in the first post about Snape killing Dumbledore. This is a huge factor which has swayed minds into believing that Snape is in fact evil and not at all Dumbledore’s man, yet HBP gives clues and hints all the way through which points to Dumbledore practically ‘forcing’ Snape to carry out the deed for the good of everyone involved. As Etta said, Dumbledore did not fear death in the slightest and would always do what was needed for the greater good. His death was needed in many ways, ways in which I will come to later.

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Death is not a "mistake" he chose to kill Dumbldore

Did he choose to kill Dumbledore? Look at the argument Hagrid let slip earlier in the book. Look at the silent communication between headmaster and professor on top of the tower. Snape did not choose to kill Dumbledore, Dumbledore made him!

What comes to my attention with many arguments over this fact on many different sites, is that people tend to get stuck on this one small point when arguing that snape is evil. Those who believe in him look into his whole character. I do not believe that this one event can be the only thing that makes people think he is evil.

With the betrayal of Lily and James. Yes, we know that he fed Voldemort valuable information about the prophecy, but we need to look at two points here. One, yes Snape was a deatheater, he had been led down the wrong path, but we don’t know the full extent of his time as a deatheater, what he did and didn’t do etc. Also, do you seriously believe that people do not make mistakes and can not repent? Two, Snape professed to himself being a deatheater and earned Dumbledore’s trust. To say that Snape continued to be on the opposing side is saying that you have no faith in one of the greatest wizards of all time. What is the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much? We don’t know for certain, but Dumbledore, although makes mistakes like everyone does, is no fool. It would not have been easy to pull the wool over his eyes, especially with his grand knowledge of occulmancy and legitimacy!

Let me bring up another point here. Many people seem to confuse the term ‘bad’ and ‘evil’. Yes, Snapes character and personality, not to ention his attitude towards Harry can be deemed as bad, but this does not make a person evil!

I have to agree with Etta’s saying about Snape,

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Snape is good, he's just misunderstood

How many of you have taken the time to try to unravel his character before jumping to the conclusion that he is pure evil? Snape is one of the most complex characters within the HP books, wouldn’t it be a waste if this complexity just turned out to be a simple evil man and nothing more?

Okay Elfie as much as I hate to say it you have a point,

He may not be "pure evil" but that doesn't mean he's not bad, yes people make mistakes, and his mistakes are and could be fatal. Take Lily and James for example. In the first book he tries to save Harry as a way to repay his debt, but ever since that first year he hasn't worried about harry or not
Snape has always been easy to dislike, because(like my history teacher says) if you dislike people then you're probably dislikable too, so shouldn't that make him bad as well. Not caring about anyone else is a great sin, and who has Snape cared about? Himself? No! Snape has never shown compasion and never will, and for that he's comitting the most evil of all, the sin of not showing love, and that's why I believe he's bad

When JK created the character of Snape she did it for reason, why spend many hours on creating this complex man when in the end she'll just have Harry be right? It is pointless and a waste of her talent.

Snape made many mistakes in the past, and just because of what was said in Spinner's End is not concrete evidence to Snape being evil. If it were, we would have to disguard every small thing which he has done since we first met him, most people who claim Snape to be evil are sharing Harry's opinion.

Would a wise man like DD simply accept such a useless reason for the one which he claimed Snape told him? No, i believe that DD simply lied to Harry, as he has done a few times over the course of the 6 books. DD's trust in Snape is the key to whose being on the side of good.

And as i have already said, DD was a trusting, SELFLESS man who would willing give his life in order to save another and with his death, 2 valuable lives were saved. This was the kind of man which DD was, he would willingly give his place in life for someone else. Just because you think Harry needs him and the Order needs him, does not mean that he would not have done such a thing.

Harry needs to continue on with his task alone, how many people saw DD's death coming eventually in these books? Since GoF i knew that DD would die and i was not surprised when he did, and on one last note, i would just like to ask this simple question:

If Snape is so evil, why would he, when fleeing Hogwarts and pushing himself further into danger, continue to teach Harry? By telling Harry he needed to shut his mouth and concentrate he was teaching him, Snape showed Harry that he was not strong enough to take on a wizard like himself let alone Voldielocks if he did not learn non verbal spells.

Oh and now that Snape killed DD, he has put himself in further danger, he no longer has DD's protection, he is now wanted not only by Harry but also the Order and the Minsitry until the day he dies he will be known as the man who killed DD, something which he will have to live with forever, knowing you killed your mentor and the only person who truly trusted you would hurt like hell, and all this from a man who has shown his SLytherin ways, i highly doubt Snape to be evil, if he were he would have been selfish and not made a vow to protect Draco, a boy who is nothing to him except the son of a "friend".

Snape himself told Malfoy in HBP you need to act your part well. And he is.

I agree with Elfie.

On Being a Death Eater
People automatically assume that Severus is bad because he killed Dumbledore and is a Death Eater. This thinking is what I have termed Mad-Eye thinking. Why blame Severus on a mistake he made twenty years ago? Why blame him for a mistake that could have been a forced decision on his part, maybe due to his parents wanting a one-up into the pureblood society where they were looked down upon, or maybe he was peer pressured into it by Lucius Malfoy. Maybe he just hoped that somewhere out there he can find some sort of acceptance after being tortured for seven years by the Mauraders. His decision to join the Death Eaters should not be held against him then. Dumbledore obviously trusted Severus, despite repetative warnings against by Alastar Moody. If Severus was an actual Death Eater, why would he commisserate with Karkoff in the fourth book, and why didn't he immediately go to his Master's side during the fourth task?

On Killing Dumbledore.
Dumbledore did not fear death, he might have even welcomed it because of his age and his ideas that it was the next great adventure. Furthermore, Severus was forced to kill Dumbledore to stay alive himself by Narcissa Malfoy. Dumbledore was going to die anyways, so why not spare Draco's innocence and do it himself? If either Draco or Severus did not kill Dumbledore, there were still many Death Eater witnesses that would have killed the weakened headmaster. If it came to that, then there was a great possibility that Harry would have been discovered, and Dumbledore cares most about his students. Furthermore, we have hints throughout book 6 that Severus was reluctant to do the deed. Hagrid drops big hints, Severus was forced at the last moment by Dumbledore calling him a coward. By hitting on his pride and reminding him of his promise, Dumbledore was able to keep the Light's spy on the Dark Lord. I believe that Severus still has contact with someone in the order, maybe Minerva, to keep spying. Another reason why Dumbledore might have forced Severus to kill him was that he was already poisoned: once from Slytherin's ring, and another time from the liquid to get Dumbledore and Harry to the fake locket. Therefore, Severus killing Dumbledore would be only delaying the inevitable. Furthermore, the Dark Lord may have started to doubt Severus, and killing Dumbledore would give the Light a solid spy in the Dark Lord's inner circle.

Concerning Love
Severus does not show love or caring because he cannot. Perhaps he was abused as a child? He was definately tortured by James, Sirius, Remus, and Peter. He might be incapable of showing love because he is afraid that it would be turned against him. However, this argument is flawed because he obviously cares enough about Draco to swear the Unbreakable Vow. Furthermore, Severus is a very honorable man. Although he hated James' guts and Harry, he still feels the need to protect Harry and his friends time after time. This could either be because he is unwilling to let a student die, or because he feels that he has to honor the wizards debt between him and James.

And to add to what Kit has so very well said, Snape knew Harry was there. It does not take a genius to figure out who the second broom belonged to, Draco may have figured it out himself had DD not forced converstaion upon him.

Refuting Lily

On Slytherins
Because people automatically assume Slytherins are evil, they have a tendency to be evil. They have been twisted because all the other houses do not like them. Therefore, to live up to the standards and expectations of the other houses, the have been put down, tortured, and hated. However, good can come from Slytherin, just as how evil came from Gryffindor. Outside the Slytherin common room, the Slytherin students must show a strong face, which makes other people believe that they are evil. If they do not show an evil front, they are assumed to be wanting something. We do not know who is in Snape's year. However, we do know that the Malfoys and the Blacks both had a lot of influence and were prominent Dark families.

On Choice
As I said in my previous post, who says that Severus picked a road? Read my previous post for my thoughts on Severus killing Dumbledore.

On the Life Debt
The life debt should be fulfilled with one life-saving time. However, time after time Severus went and helped Harry.
First year: Quirrel. Enough said.
Third year: Shrieking Shack. He went to save the Golden Trio even though he hated them, against a known convict that he believed was out to kill Harry and also a werewolf. He is probably also afraid of werewolves, due to the Remus Lupin incident in his fifth year.
Fifth year: He didn't have to tell Dumbledore where Harry and crew went, and if he didn't Harry would be dead. Enough said.

On the Prophecy
You say that "No one but Voldemort can kill Harry because only one will live and only the other can do it." If so, then why did Severus bother? You have to remember that he didn't report the entire prophecy, so either he didn't hear the whole thing or didn't want the Dark Lord to hear the whole thing. Either way, that means that Severus left before he could hear critical information, which decreases the likelihood that the Dark Lord would suspect him, thus the light would still have their spy, or he just didn't report the critical information, which led the Dark Lord into making a mistake.

Snape didnt report the critical information, re-read HBP chapter .... The Seer Overheard Trewlawney unwittingly tells harry something along the lines of blacking uot nd the enxt thing she knew Snape had been found evesdropping.

So Snape chose to not report the full prohecy, y bet is DD spoke to him, offered him a way of making up for his past crimes, and he did and mmost likely still will do by helping Harry in the final boook.

Remember even as he was fleeing at the end of HBP Snape was still helping Harry, even if he was to blind to realise.

I dont see the point of Snape fleeing to keep being and Order spy. Becasue now that he has killed DD, noone in the order will let him back or listen to anything he says. And of course, I will admit Snape is a smart man. He would know noone would beleive him. Then why go through all that trouble to go to Voldielocks? Why kill DD? Obviously if he did, he would end up dying to. It doesn't fit him being good.

Refuting KatieBellaTrix
What if Dumbledore had already arranged something with the Order? He has to have told someone. After all, he needs this spy. Also, anonymous tips might also work. Dumbledore preferred to have one person dead, aka himself, who was old and about to die anyways, versus all three of them dead, because, as I said before there were other Death Eaters willing to carry out the deed. Draco would get killed for failing, and Severus would be dead because of the Unbreakable Vow.

Refuting Kit

Okay, i h ehad told someone in the Order, why was everyone so shocked? How come noone told anyone? Everybody in the Order seemed very and truley surprized that he was gone didn't they? It's reall yhard to fake somehting as emotional as that.

you are counting McGonagall, Lupin, the Weasleys Hagrid and Tonks as everyone in the order. There are many members, not all of whom we see, like his brother for instance is a member, DD could simply have told him, as we know he did use visiting the Hogs HEad Inn as an excuse for his Horcrux searching. Because we havent yet met Abaforth properly, we can only speculate but like i said there are many members of the Order who could have been told, just because a handful did not know does not mean that everyone else didnt.

Take a look at what you said Sunny, he tried to save Harry’s life in PS to repay his debt to James. Why would he do this if he truly hated James and Harry and wanted them dead? I know that it is a wizards honor to do this, yet I couldn’t see some deatheaters doing this. Also, you say that’s the last time he tried to save Harry’s life, I have to disagree. I will, for this point, direct you to the end of HBP after DD’s death when Harry chases Snape through the grounds. Take a look at what Snape spits out at Harry, which Etta also covered. It might come across as the opposing side to the order, but take into account Draco was there and could easily overhear what was said. Snape was helping harry – he was giving him advice, telling him that if he didn’t work on occulmancy then the dark lord would easily be able to control him (forgive me, I don’t have the quotes in front of me at the moment). This does show caring, this also shows loyalty! He has a job to do, this is true, yet his loyalties are clearly shown with the Order, and in particular, Dumbledore.

Kit covered the love part of Snape and touched on a very good point. How can a person show love openly when they have never been shown love themselves? This does not make a person evil, yet makes the person poor compared to those who can love. Personally, I think the emotion is inside of Snape, for example with Lily, yet wht would he show it openly only to be ridiculed. He plays a part as an undercover deatheater. Showing emotions like this would get him killed as Voldemort himself is incapable of any emotions.

Lily quoted that all slytherins are evil – so does that mean rightfully Harry is evil? The sorting hat was going to put him in slytherin! No of course not! You can not class all of one house with the same brush, and you have to remember the books are from Harry's POV so anything we see about the slytherins (who he hates) will be skewed. It is true that Snape followed the group when becoming a deatheater, though he repented a long time ago. He shows characterizations of wanting to be needed and fit it, though when he realized what it concerned, he made the right choice. It goes back to the mistakes people make in life. Can no one be forgiven? If someone does one thing wrong are they persecuted for the rest of their lives?

Again, this debate has gone back to the ‘he killed dumbledore’ argument. I feel that if people mainly base the argument of Snape being evil on this, it shows that there is so much more evidence to back Snape up on the side of good! This was only one part of Snapes character!

Yes, it is true to say that Voldemort and Harry must duel and one must kill the other, yet the prophesy can be read many ways. Is this to say that a car will never run Harry over?

With regards to what Katie said about Snape fleeing, this is where I believe that DD’s portrait will come in, to offer the order and explination, yet possibly not until Harry has completed what he needs to. His emotions over DD’s death with push him on! Also, why would DD tell the whole order. No one knows who might be a spy. Severus is the most trusted by DD, therefore it seems fitting that only they knew about what was to come. If order members knew, they may have tried to intervene – DD did not wish this!

One last thing I want to bring up in this post, that of the part of an anti-hero. Every decent story has one and Snape is the anti-hero in the HP series.

To highlight what the anti-hero is,

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In literature and film, an anti-hero has widely come to mean a fictional character who has some characteristics that are antithetical to those of the traditional hero. An anti-hero in today's books and films will perform acts generally deemed "heroic," but will do so with methods, manners, or intentions that may not be heroic.

anti-heroes can be awkward, antisocial, alienated, cruel, obnoxious, passive, pitiful, obtuse, or just ordinary. When the anti-hero is a central character in a work of fiction the work will frequently deal with the effect their flawed character has on them and those they meet along the narrative. In other words, an anti-hero is a protagonist that lives by the guidance of their own moral compass, striving to define and construe their own values as opposed to those recognized by the society in which they live. Additionally, the work may depict how their character alters over time, either leading to punishment, un-heroic success, or redemption.

Stress on the redemption part of that quote!

I doesn't seem good enough to me, in the 6th book we learn Snape gave infomration over to Voldielocks that lead to the murders of Amelia Bones and Emmaline Vance. He couldn't lie about that. Bella could easily prove to Voldy she is capable of being his favorite again and then ask him if Snape really did give the information over. Snape would obviously be killed pretty soon if this was the case. We also learn in HBP that Bella know Occulmency and very possbily Legilmency, I have a very strong feeling she would be able to tell if Snape was lying even if he is a "superb Occulms"

Yes Snape did give information which led to Emmaline Vance's death but not amelia bones. He would have had his reasons as to why he gave her up and not, let us say, the Weasley's, he would know that the weasley twins r living above their shop, sitting bait, and that Remus was undercover with the Werewolves, again easy prey, oh and then there is Tonks and i'll stop there.

Snape could have easily lied to everyone concerned because he can act, he plasy his part well which is why he has stayed alive for this long.

we don't knoe he hasn't told Voldielocks all that stuff. Just becasue they haven't been done yet doesnt mean Voldie isnt planning them base don information from Snape, Voldie likes to do things in style, and if Snape told him inportant information then it might take months even a year for Voldie to act, he likes to make a statement.

Refuting KatieBellaTrix
Severus just "officially" lost his position as the spy in the Order, so before then, if they worked on any critical information right after Snape found out about it before, the whole Order would have known that it was Severus's fault. So that is the Dark Lord being smart, not Severus being evil.

When Snapeypoo learned about the prophecy and told Voldielocks he didnt know which couple Voldie would go after, at the time he was trying to impress his "friends" when he told DD that he regretted his actions and what they would result in and so i believe he felt bad, maybe snape had never killed anyone, no one could act such deep regret no matter how good of actor they were. On top of that if Snape was a true DEath Eater DD would never have trusted him, and why would we all be led to trust DD and what he had to say, to believe him in being a great wizard, and JK's frav charecter, only for him to be shown as 'wrong' over Snape ... It would make us think to believe that DD was as the lobey Ms Skeeter once called him, an old goat, who had no idea what he was doing.

What makes Snape different to Voldielocks is that he has felt love, i dont believe it was Lily, more likely his mother, something which Voldielocks never had, we saw glimpes of Snapes childhood, we know it wasn't perfect and with being bullied at school he would do anything to impress, like rushin to Voldie with what he had heard, in hope it would make him liked, and as for givng out information on members of the Order, well, he admitted in HBP that not many if at all any of the Death Eaters trusted him, again he would do anything to impress, to feel as though he belonged because that is something which he hasnt had in his life, a feeling of belonging.

Now the Unbreakable Vow, he must have known that Narcissa Malfoy would approach him, it would only have been a matter of tie before Voldielocks claimed Draco as punishment to Lucius, and so when she came to him, he agreed to the vow, even though he did not want to deep down inside he knew it would be him who had to carry out the dark crime of killing a man who had given him everything, i believe DD knew about the vow, something of this standard would not be kept quiet, why else would DD silence Harry everytime he brought up his suspicions on Snape and Draco, DD thought of Harry more than a student, a friend even, and a friend would not ignore another's warnings or fears or suspicions.

Hagrid overheard DD and Snape, we know Snape was telling DD that he couldnt do it (not exactly the right words but its along the same lines.)
Also, why didnt Snape take Harry and apperate straight to Voldielocks with him at the end of HBP? Why did DD give Snape the DADA job, knowing fine well that Snape wouldnt last longer then a year because the job was cursed. He had refrained from giving it to Snape not because he thought it would bring bk his old ways, but because he did not wish to lose Snape. Having Snape kill DD makes him the perfect spy, no one in the Death Nibblers would suspect Snape now of being disloyal to Voldielocks.

In the tower, when DD said his name, just before he killed him, his face was etched with hatred, but not hatred for DD in "god i hate you foul old man i lobe my dark lord and master wigman more then you" kind of way, it was imo a "i hate you for putting me in this situctation" even to the end, Snape was loyal to DD by carrying out his demand, we know snape and DD r skilled legi sooo, when DD said Snapes name, DD could have quite simply shown Snape a memory which he knew would translate for snape as a JUST DO IT! kind of thing, oh that would make a good idea for a NIKE advert :D Anyways, i think DD forced Snape into killing him just like he forced Harry into making him drink that yucky potion in the cave. DD wasnt pleading to live, he has said many times, that death is the next great adventure.

And *is on a roll so SORRY!* and who was it that alerted the Order to Harry's whereabouts? ummmm SNAPE, and in doing so he RUINED voldielocks plan and STOPPED his "master fool" hearing the full prophecy. DD nd Snapeypoo made an unbreakable vow (poor Snapeypoo seems to be haunted by these things!) and that vow would ahve been along the lines of you will do all that i ask of you even kill me and as for a bonder well DD's bubber Aberforth. Siple really ... hmm... wow i surprised myself with my own genius once more and now i am so convinced i am right about Snapeypoo i am going to go stalk JK and request she adds a small note in DH saying "Ettie of H.E was TOTALLY GOD DAMN RIGHT!"

i think i'll stop there for now .... yes it may be wise if i did. and remember ETTIE IS RIGHT!!!!! JK will even adit it herself when i get up to Edinburgh.

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Etta

After reading the last book and discovering he killed DD i was shocked but then i remembered something DD said, Death is just the next great adventure. DD did not fear death, he looked forward to it, simply because he knew he had done all he could. on top of that DD was not a selfish man, he would rather die himself then lose two innocent lives.

It doesn’t matter if he had choice or not. Once you kill there’s no turning back. Besides there’s always other ways. Killing someone as good as Dumbledore is unbalance the line between good and evil.

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Etta

As for the potters, we learnt in HBP that Snape overheard the WHOLE prophecy even if trewlawney doesnt know she made one, she remembered everything going all funny and the next thing she knew snape had been found listening in, yet for a man who was oh so LOYAL to VOLDIELOCKS, why did he deliever only HALF the prophecy? Because he was already working for DD at the time

Snape may be bad but he’s not totally stupid. He’d never trust anyone with full informations he may use later to whatever side wins! Besides that leak of information caused harm not only to the potters but as the Longbottoms as well.

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Etta

Just because a person makes a few mistakes, chooses badly, does not mean they were bad, if that were the case we would all be going straight to hell

There’s a limit though, Snape’s “few” bad choices have become a daily practice.

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Elfie

One, yes Snape was a deatheater, he had been led down the wrong path, but we don’t know the full extent of his time as a deatheater, what he did and didn’t do etc. Also, do you seriously believe that people do not make mistakes and can not repent?

We don’t know what he's done that’s for sure but no doubt it wasn’t anything good though. Again there’s so much a level of mistakes a person can make. Snape’s not a weak mind who just run to get led into the wrong way. Or do you think he’s that easily turned?

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Elfie

Two, Snape professed to himself being a deatheater and earned Dumbledore’s trust. To say that Snape continued to be on the opposing side is saying that you have no faith in one of the greatest wizards of all time. What is the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much?

DD was a great man and i admit that he almost for sure knew Snape’d kill him. I think DD choose Snape on purpose he knows it takes a bad person to be able to kill or are you seeing McGonagall Killing DD even if it was for a greater good?

Quote :

Elfie

It would not have been easy to pull the wool over his eyes, especially with his grand knowledge of occulmancy and legitimacy

DD knew Snape’s evil for sure but also must know Snape would be fulcral in the battle yet to come but not as a hero i think trying to be bad Snape will involuntarily contribut to Voldemort’s doom. So even if snape’s help Harry will not be cuz he’s good! It will be unwillingly or to fulfill his own agenda.

Quote :

Etta

If Snape is so evil, why would he, when fleeing Hogwarts and pushing himself further into danger, continue to teach Harry?

Snape has his own agenda he knows if Voldemort wins he’d most likely become expendable and that may be one of the reasons for him to retunr and try to get in DD grace.He also knows to much he also knows Harry’s the only one able to vanish Voldemort so he’s trying to get him stronger. Snape knows he’d get more chances of living if Harry wins instead of Voldemort, so again he’s acting to his own agenda not cuz he wants good to triumph.

Quote :

Elfie

Take a look at what you said Sunny, he tried to save Harry’s life in PS to repay his debt to James. Why would he do this if he truly hated James and Harry and wanted them dead?

When someone saves our life there’s a magical bound. Remember DD saying Voldemort would not want a servent with a life dept to Harry? Snape wanted to get rid of that life dept cuz it was a burden not cuz he got a guilty consicence!

Quote :

Elfie

Lily quoted that all slytherins are evil – so does that mean rightfully Harry is evil? The sorting hat was going to put him in slytherin! No of course not

Can you quote a good slytherin?
Harry’s a selfish brat who only saves the day cuz he has personal grudges against the bad characters not cuz he’s selfless and wants to save the world!


Snape's full of resentments and a person filled with such bad feelings can never turned to be good.

And we must not forget the grea part! He's got greasy hair! Therefore he's mean and a viscious queen!

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It doesn’t matter if he had choice or not. Once you kill there’s no turning back. Besides there’s always other ways. Killing someone as good as Dumbledore is unbalance the line between good and evil.

So there are no shades of gray? Dumbledore's killed before. He killed Grindewald, remember?

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Snape may be bad but he’s not totally stupid. He’d never trust anyone with full informations he may use later to whatever side wins! Besides that leak of information caused harm not only to the potters but as the Longbottoms as well.

So he's not evil. Shades of gray again. He didn't want to harm both families, apparently, so harming 1 is less than harming 2, so therefore, he saved lives.

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There’s a limit though, Snape’s “few” bad choices have become a daily practice.

How so? His one bad choice was to join the Dark Lord, which he already repented. Everything else was to preserve his status as a spy.

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We don’t know what he's done that’s for sure but no doubt it wasn’t anything good though. Again there’s so much a level of mistakes a person can make. Snape’s not a weak mind who just run to get led into the wrong way. Or do you think he’s that easily turned?

Again. He was probably forced to join, and he spent the rest of his life repenting.

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DD was a great man and i admit that he almost for sure knew Snape’d kill him. I think DD choose Snape on purpose he knows it takes a bad person to be able to kill or are you seeing McGonagall Killing DD even if it was for a greater good?

Severus is a hard man, but not cruel. He knew that Snape might one day have to kill him, but he also trusted Snape. Therefore, Snape was only working on orders.

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DD knew Snape’s evil for sure but also must know Snape would be fulcral in the battle yet to come but not as a hero i think trying to be bad Snape will involuntarily contribut to Voldemort’s doom. So even if snape’s help Harry will not be cuz he’s good! It will be unwillingly or to fulfill his own agenda.

His own agenda, which is ultimately good.

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Snape has his own agenda he knows if Voldemort wins he’d most likely become expendable and that may be one of the reasons for him to retunr and try to get in DD grace.He also knows to much he also knows Harry’s the only one able to vanish Voldemort so he’s trying to get him stronger. Snape knows he’d get more chances of living if Harry wins instead of Voldemort, so again he’s acting to his own agenda not cuz he wants good to triumph.

But he's therefore on the "good" side, which makes him not bad. You are proving my point here.

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When someone saves our life there’s a magical bound. Remember DD saying Voldemort would not want a servent with a life dept to Harry? Snape wanted to get rid of that life dept cuz it was a burden not cuz he got a guilty consicence!

Repaying a life debt would only take one saving of lives. Snape saved Harry's life how many times?

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Can you quote a good slytherin?
Harry’s a selfish brat who only saves the day cuz he has personal grudges against the bad characters not cuz he’s selfless and wants to save the world!

Yes, Harry is selfish, but that's the only world he knows. A good slytherin. Maybe you haven't looked hard enough? The problem with the characters in Harry Potter is that they are mostly one dimentional. We only see "EVIL DRACO" and "GOON GOYLE AND CRABBE," never the Draco as seen by his housemates.

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And we must not forget the grea part! He's got greasy hair! Therefore he's mean and a viscious queen!

=.=;;;; sorry, superficiality is a pet peeve of mine.

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So there are no shades of gray? Dumbledore's killed before. He killed Grindewald, remember?

It says defeatd in the book not killed!

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So he's not evil. Shades of gray again. He didn't want to harm both families, apparently, so harming 1 is less than harming 2, so therefore, he saved lives.

He didn't want to hurt both families? Says who? Saved lives? Whose lives?

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How so? His one bad choice was to join the Dark Lord, which he already repented. Everything else was to preserve his status as a spy.

Teasing Sirius inciting him to leave grimmauld and was a good action I supposed.

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Again. He was probably forced to join, and he spent the rest of his life repenting.

Please!

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Severus is a hard man, but not cruel. He knew that Snape might one day have to kill him, but he also trusted Snape. Therefore, Snape was only working on orders.

I'm sure you meant DD instead of Severus. Trus is such a strong word...

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His own agenda, which is ultimately good.

Yeah right!

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But he's therefore on the "good" side, which makes him not bad. You are proving my point here.

Being in the good side is not the same as being good!

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Repaying a life debt would only take one saving of lives. Snape saved Harry's life how many times?

How much again?

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Yes, Harry is selfish, but that's the only world he knows. A good slytherin. Maybe you haven't looked hard enough? The problem with the characters in Harry Potter is that they are mostly one dimentional. We only see "EVIL DRACO" and "GOON GOYLE AND CRABBE," never the Draco as seen by his housemates.

Do you really want to state that???? Cuz does it man if you're good to your housemates makes it good to be evil to others?

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=.=;;;; sorry, superficiality is a pet peeve of mine.

Andd what about the nose????'

Firstly, Sirius went into battle of his own free, Snape did NOT place him under a curse and send him off to his death.

Secondly,

“The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance.”
(ch. 2, p.30)

I remembered reading an editorial back in January last year by a girl named Dawn over at Mugglenet and have just found it re-read it and picked out the following quotes for a reason:

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Harry doesn't know that Snape killed Emmeline, so it would have no effect on Harry's actions unless he finds out later. But what on Earth is the point of Harry finding out that Snape killed Emmeline, when he already holds Snape responsible for Lily, James and Dumbledore?He cannot kill you if you are already dead... nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother…”

right, look closely, why did Snape give Voldielocks the information which led to Emmeline's capture and murder? Because she was of no use to Harry. She was not important, her death, however sad it may have been for the Order has no control over Harry's life, it doesnt effect what he does next.


Thirdly, again quotes taken from another well written Editorial from Mugglenet.

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As any logician can tell you, if you assume that something is true and that assumption leads to a contradiction, the assumption has just been proven false. So let’s assume that Snape is loyal to Voldemort, and with that assumption in mind, take a look at Chapter 2 of HBP, “Spinner’s End.”

It is in Spinner's End that we see Snape showing any "loyalty" to Voldielocks, what is said in this Chapter is between Death Eaters and none more loyal then the very lobely *bows down to Queen Bella* Bellatrix Lestrange:

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“You can carry my words back to the others who whisper behind my back, and carry false tales of my treachery to the Dark Lord!”
-HBP, pg. 26

He starts answering Bella's questions by making sure she carrys his words back to the others, he is attempting to build himself up in the eyes of the Death Eaters in the hope that he can be trusted by them once more, he needs their trust as well as Voldielocks because when he cant get info from the ohnotsoevilone he will try to get it from the Death Nibblers. Now would be a good time to plug my series Voldielocks and his great adventures by SnapesPrincess over at the Hogwarts Quill *looks around and smiles innocently* reviews welcome btw :D

now bk to what i was saying before i so rudely interupted myself.

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If this weren’t Snape’s official story to Voldemort, his invitation to tell all of the Death Eaters would be risking a lie being brought to Voldemort’s attention. That could prove fatal for someone so recently brought back into the fold after being thought a traitor. So what we hear Snape say in this chapter may as well have been said to Voldemort, and since we’re assuming that Snape is loyal to Voldemort, it must therefore also be true.

Which leads to the contradiction. In the process of explaining why he didn’t kill Harry, Snape explains a little about how he perceived Harry at first, and how that perception changed:

“But there was more to it than that. I should remind you that when Potter first arrived at Hogwarts there were still many stories circulating about him, rumors that he himself was a great Dark wizard, which was how he had survived the Dark Lord’s attack. Indeed, many of the Dark Lord’s old followers thought Potter might be a standard around which we could all rally once more. I was curious, I admit it, and not at all inclined to murder him the moment he set foot in the castle...Of course, it became apparent to me very quickly that he had no extraordinary talent at all.”
-HBP, pp. 30-31

Think back to PS, when Snape first et Harry, when he first TAUGHT him, did Snape give Harry a chance? No, instead, as "evil" as it may have been Snape picked on Harry knowing full well that the boy had been raised by muggles and had no access to the magical world. Snape never stopped and questioned Harry to discover if he were a Dark Wizard.

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Dumbledore’s Trust

Dumbledore was many things, but he was not a stupid man. Further, he was not the starry-eyed optimist that the Death Eaters believed, or Harry feared, him to be. Yes, he was famous for giving people second chances, but not at the cost of blinding himself to the risks. To prove this, we only need look as far as the arrival of Tom Riddle. An alarming young man when Dumbledore first met him, but Dumbledore gave Tom a second chance -- the opportunity not to be the sadistic loner he appeared to be. Yet at the same time, Dumbledore was wary:

“Did I know that I had just met the most dangerous Dark wizard of all time?” said Dumbledore. “No, I had no idea that he was to grow up to be what he is. However, I was certainly intrigued by him. I returned to Hogwarts intending to keep an eye upon him, something I should have done in any case, given that he was alone and friendless, but which, already, I felt I ought to do for others’ sake as much as his.”
-HBP, pg. 276

And later:

“However, if he was frightening or impressing fellow Slytherins with displays of Parseltongue in their common room, no hint of it reached the staff. He showed no sign of outward arrogance or aggression at all. As an unusually talented and very good-looking orphan, he naturally drew attention and sympathy from the staff almost from the moment of his arrival. He seemed polite, quiet, and thirsty for knowledge. Nearly all were most favorably impressed by him.”
“Didn’t you tell them, sir, what he’d been like when you met him at the orphanage?” asked Harry.
“No, I did not. Though he had shown no hint of remorse, it was possible that he felt sorry for how he had behaved before and was resolved to turn over a fresh leaf. I chose to give him that chance.”
Dumbledore paused and looked inquiringly at Harry, who had opened his mouth to speak. Here, again, was Dumbledore’s tendency to trust people in spite of overwhelming evidence that they did not deserve it! But then Harry remembered something...
“But you didn’t really trust him, sir, did you? He told me...the Riddle who came out of that diary said, ‘Dumbledore never seemed to like me as much as the other teachers did.’”
“Let us say that I did not take it for granted that he was trustworthy,” said Dumbledore. “I had, as I have already indicated, resolved to keep a close eye upon him, and so I did.”
-HBP, pp. 360-361

This guy has a seriously good point, DD is a great wizard, and not once did he express his "lack of confidence" in Snape because he knew he could trust Snape to the death.

And how can we not b sure that DD did not die or was dying from Voldielock's potion? We know he was weakened, we know he was asking for Snape and not Madame pomfrey who Harry so desperatly wanted to fetch, nor did he ask for Slughorn, an old friend and skilled Potion's master, he asked for Snape because he KNEW he was dying, because he KNEW that on that very night, the night when he had EXTRA guards in Hogwarts - he left the castle more then once over that year and never did he call upon the Order members in the numbers they were in at the school that night - Draco would strike, which is why he took Harry with him, when instead he could have waited, DD knew Draco was running out of time, he knew what would happen to the boy and he knew of the unbreakbale Vow. And that is why, knowing he was dying, he asked for Snape. So Snape could complete the task, end DD's suffering and save Draco in the process. Like i ahve already said in this debate, DD was a selfless man and a great wizard as well as intelligent.

*sits down* *jumps back up and bows* One last thing!!!!!!!

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And we must not forget the grea part! He's got greasy hair! Therefore he's mean and a viscious queen!

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=.=;;;; sorry, superficiality is a pet peeve of mine.


Andd what about the nose????'

Are you serious Rai? Just because a person is not as *thinks of a 12+ word* Handsome as Lucius Malfoy does not mean he is mean! If you personally judge a person on their looks alone then you are one shallow human being, its like a person judging another by the colour of their skin.

*pours bucket of hippogriff dung over Rai's head*

*sits down as far away from him as possible.*

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right, look closely, why did Snape give Voldielocks the information which led to Emmeline's capture and murder? Because she was of no use to Harry. She was not important, her death, however sad it may have been for the Order has no control over Harry's life, it doesnt effect what he does next.

ok.. it didn't diectly affect Harry but he still casued the murder of a person..which is EVIL!

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Are you serious Rai? Just because a person is not as *thinks of a 12+ word* Handsome as Lucius Malfoy does not mean he is mean! If you personally judge a person on their looks alone then you are one shallow human being, its like a person judging another by the colour of their skin.

*pours bucket of hippogriff dung over Rai's head*

if you're not good enough to take care of yourself no way you'd be good to others

oohh dar ettie even wih this dung i'm not as greasy as snape therefore i'm not as evil as he :D

Raistlin The Wizard wrote:

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Are you serious Rai? Just because a person is not as *thinks of a 12+ word* Handsome as Lucius Malfoy does not mean he is mean! If you personally judge a person on their looks alone then you are one shallow human being, its like a person judging another by the colour of their skin.

*pours bucket of hippogriff dung over Rai's head*

if you're not good enough to take care of yourself no way you'd be good to others

oohh dar ettie even wih this dung i'm not as greasy as snape therefore i'm not as evil as he :D

you are seriously not the boy i thought you were, i would say man but meh your not close enough to joining the leagues of men yet.

Snape does what he does for a reason and there is no way i am going to believe that Snape willingly handed over information which led to the capture of Emmeline and then her murder, as far as we know Snape could have simply told voldielocks that members of the Order would be at such an such a place at such and such a time with the okay from DD, just because she was killed does not mean Snape is to blame even if he did brag about it in front one of Voldielcoks most volitile and brilliant Death Eaters, he was showing off, trying to make himself seem so important, so useful just because he says he was involved with it doesnt mean he is too blame for it. Does that make sense??

(for once I'm on Raist's side *shudders* scary)

Snapes personal hygeine is another matter, but as Raist said if your can't care for yourself how could you ever care for others. It just goes to show that Snape is truely evil deep down.

Now we all know that in Harry's third year at hogwarts, Sirius Balck came back...

In the last moments at the lake side Snape found both he and Harry. Snape turned Sirius in. Now if he was truly working for the order why would he do that???

I rest my case

Dancingsunset wrote:

Now we all know that in Harry's third year at hogwarts, Sirius Balck came back...

In the last moments at the lake side Snape found both he and Harry. Snape turned Sirius in. Now if he was truly working for the order why would he do that???

I rest my case

Firstly, Snape turned Sirius in because he was an escaped Criminal.

Secondly, he was unconscious during the whole Scabbers is Peter thing.

Thirdly, Sirius had all ready proven to be slightly unbalanced by breaking into the castle etc

Fourthly, Voldielocks hadnt returned yet so Snape had no loyalty to the Order only to DD.

So you see, Snape had a job as not only a citizen but also a teacher. He remembered what sirius had "done" on the fatal day after the Potter;s Death, he knew what everyone else with the expection of the trioo nd later DD knew, he acted only as anyone would act.

Also, not all the Death Nibblers are known to each other, Snape didnt know about Wormtail, so how would he know about Sirius?

Now i rest my case.

Etta wrote:

Firstly, Snape turned Sirius in because he was an escaped Criminal.

Secondly, he was unconscious during the whole Scabbers is Peter thing.

Thirdly, Sirius had all ready proven to be slightly unbalanced by breaking into the castle etc

Fourthly, Voldielocks hadnt returned yet so Snape had no loyalty to the Order only to DD.

First off I disagree with you, just the fact that Snape turned Sirius proves that he is truly evil.

Secondly he wasn't unconscious when Sirius protected the trio and Snape from Remus.

Thridly Sirius was only trying to get to Harry to see him, that doesn't prove anything about him being unbalanced.

Forthly Dumbledor knew that Sirius was innocent.

Then why didn't dumbledore argue for siri's freedom? Dumbledore has a lot of influence in the ministery and he's head of Wizengamot.

Okay you are totally confusing fiction with Hollywood on point 3 because if u read the book you will see Snape is still unconcious when he protects them from Marie's Fluffy Hunk,

and again, Snape did the RIGHT thing by turnign Sirius in, he was an escaoped prisoner! As far as the world knew he had killed all those ppl! And i am sorry but if there was a man who i believed (remember Snape doesnt know the truth) was a murdering loonitic and i caught him, i'd hand him in as well!

Sirius was trying to get at Scabbers, to save Harry he wasnt really tryign to see Harry, he jusrt took the cjhance.

i suggest you re-read the PoA before you post again with reference to the book.

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you are seriously not the boy i thought you were, i would say man but meh your not close enough to joining the leagues of men yet.

hey hey! we're discussing snape not me! besides you really don't know me if you thought i was serious i of all wouldn't judge anyone for that as I have my share of prejudice! I'm just making thinhs a little funny! thereofre greay's bad!

you're all saying killing dumbedore was a purpose for the greater good so are we saying the end justifies the means?? is that the message jk wants to pass? and couldn't snape hesitated? find another way if he's so loyal to DD? if he's such a good person

and i don't like the way you're portraing snape you're making look like a puppet that goes with flow once following voldemort now following DD, snape's much more intelligent and power than that!


okay now here's my real opinion. Is snape on the good side? yes i do think so. is snape a good person? definetly no! he's a bad person that's taking the side of whom he knows will win.

Snape does what is in the best interest for him, he always has, i doubt he even knows which side he is on, its like he sits on the fence, just waiting for the outcome.

Yes he has commited crimes, but we cant all be saints, we all do things we are not proud of, we will all be punished and have to live with what we did until the day we die. But that does not mean we are bad.

A person is entitkled to make mistakes, a person is entitled to be unsure and a person is entitled to do as they please, Snape has his back pushed against a wall concerning the Order and Death Nibblers, he never really had much choice in some of the things he did.

Snape is good at the end of the day there is something deep down inside of him that makes him a good person and he will prove it in the final book.

Etta I disagree on this statement

Etta wrote:

A person is entitkled to make mistakes, a person is entitled to be unsure and a person is entitled to do as they please, Snape has his back pushed against a wall concerning the Order and Death Nibblers, he never really had much choice in some of the things he did.

Snape is good at the end of the day there is something deep down inside of him that makes him a good person and he will prove it in the final book.

A person is entitled to make a choice Snape choose to go to the 'dark side' he had the choice weather or not to kill Dumbledore, he made his choice he also made the choices to go under the unbreakable vow. It was his choice and that in it all makes him a bad person.

Who we are at the end of the day is not as important as who we are in the morning, for in the end we can't change what we've already done. But in the beginning it is only ourselfs we have to blame for for the choices we MAY make through out the day. In the beginning you can choose anything you want and he choose to become a deatheater, he choose to be under the unbreakable vow. It was his choice!

We do not know snapes reasons for becomin a Death Eater but we do know when he made the UV it was in front of Cissy and Bella and possiblky with Worybum listening in, if he had of said no it woudl have been suspious.

And he had no choice but to kill DD otherwise someone else would have done it and he would be dead.

I already said why Severus was forced under the unbreakable Vow. he had to so that he could stay close to both mad-woman trixie and the Malfoys. It is his choice, yes, but for a greater cause.