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| Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** | |
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+8streams of silver OUTxxWITHxxAxxBANG Dancingsunset Snapes_girl Kit WaterLily Caroru Amy 12 posters | Author | Message |
---|
Amy Retired Deputy Head : 5th year
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-22 Number of posts : 11746 Age : 37 Location : England Real First Name : Amy Warning : House : Gryffindor Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Fri Feb 23 2007, 08:36 | |
| Thankyou to KatieBellaTrix for this debate suggestion. She receives 10 points for her house.
Ever since book five this question has been raised, is Percy good or evil? Loyal to his family or a traitorous traitor?
There will be two teams: for and against.
Two members from each house are needed to sign up before the debate can begin. You CANNOT choose which side you will be placed on, so please do not ask.
As soon as we have enough members for the debate, it will start. Sign up in this thread.
SIDES
FOR: Percy is good AGAINST: Percy is bad
PARTICIPANTS
Gryffindor Caroru WaterLily
Ravenclaw Kit Rigby Dumbledore
Hufflepuff Dancingsunset Streams of Silver
Slytherin Snapes_girl OUTxxWITHxxAxxBANG
Last edited by on Tue May 08 2007, 11:39; edited 10 times in total | |
| | | Caroru HE Owl
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-24 Number of posts : 15490 Age : 32 Location : Finland Real First Name : Caro Warning : House : Gryffindor Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Fri Feb 23 2007, 08:40 | |
| I'll sign up for Gryffindor :D | |
| | | WaterLily 5th Year
Regist. date : 2006-02-28 Number of posts : 2853 Age : 34 Location : England - So wet... Warning : House : GRYFFINDOR! Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Fri Feb 23 2007, 10:41 | |
| | |
| | | Kit 1st Year
Regist. date : 2006-12-12 Number of posts : 257 Age : 35 Warning : House : Ravenclaw Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Fri Feb 23 2007, 14:05 | |
| | |
| | | Snapes_girl 1st Year
Country : Regist. date : 2006-10-24 Number of posts : 6274 Age : 40 Location : Indiana Real First Name : Nancy Warning : House : Slytherin - Where I have always belonged Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Tue Feb 27 2007, 16:37 | |
| Ooooohhhhhh I definitely want to sign up for this one!! Count me in for Slytherin! | |
| | | Dancingsunset 1st Year
Regist. date : 2006-08-03 Number of posts : 8545 Age : 31 Location : Stuck in Octoberland with my amazing husband Anthony Real First Name : Schizo-Dani and Eryn Warning : House : Hufflepuff don't judge us we're still badgers grrr... Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Tue Feb 27 2007, 16:45 | |
| yup yup yup sign me up yup yup yup | |
| | | OUTxxWITHxxAxxBANG 5th Year
Regist. date : 2006-11-15 Number of posts : 2677 Location : In the Deatheater Den! Real First Name : Jessie Warning : House : Slytherin, where else? Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Tue Feb 27 2007, 18:51 | |
| I'm in! I'm in I'm in I'm in! Woooooooooooooooooooot! Slytherin! | |
| | | streams of silver 5th Year
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-22 Number of posts : 6449 Age : 36 Location : (insert clever statement here) Real First Name : What is real? Warning : House : Hufflepuff, of course. I thought it was obvious... Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Wed Feb 28 2007, 13:55 | |
| | |
| | | RhiannonMei 1st Year
Country : Regist. date : 2007-02-02 Number of posts : 4728 Age : 30 Location : I'm not sure.... Real First Name : June Warning : House : Gryffindor Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Tue Mar 06 2007, 16:36 | |
| | |
| | | Amy Retired Deputy Head : 5th year
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-22 Number of posts : 11746 Age : 37 Location : England Real First Name : Amy Warning : House : Gryffindor Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Wed Mar 07 2007, 09:09 | |
| I'm sorry June, we already have 2 Gryffindor's signed up.
However, we do need one more Ravenclaw before the debate can start! | |
| | | RhiannonMei 1st Year
Country : Regist. date : 2007-02-02 Number of posts : 4728 Age : 30 Location : I'm not sure.... Real First Name : June Warning : House : Gryffindor Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Wed Mar 07 2007, 16:34 | |
| kk... oh well... I'll sign up for other ones later on then! | |
| | | Rigby Dumbledore 3rd Year
Country : Regist. date : 2007-01-30 Number of posts : 4801 Location : Rêveur Real First Name : Kate or Katie Warning : House : Ravenclaw Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sat Mar 10 2007, 10:32 | |
| Okay, I'll do it! Sign my up for Ravenclaw. | |
| | | Amy Retired Deputy Head : 5th year
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-22 Number of posts : 11746 Age : 37 Location : England Real First Name : Amy Warning : House : Gryffindor Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Tue Mar 13 2007, 17:07 | |
| Sign ups are over, and the debate can now begin! Your sides are listed below.
Remember, the more detailed and researched your arguments are, the more points you will receive. You could earn a maximum of 50 points for your house.
Good Luck!
FOR: Percy is good Caroru debating for Gryffindor Kit debating for Ravenclaw Streams of Silver debating for Hufflepuff Snapes_girl debating for Slytherin
AGAINST: Percy is bad WaterLily debating for Gryffindor Rigby Dumbledore debating for Ravenclaw Dancingsunset debating for Hufflepuff OUTxxWITHxxAxxBANG debating for Slytherin.
You may begin! | |
| | | Dancingsunset 1st Year
Regist. date : 2006-08-03 Number of posts : 8545 Age : 31 Location : Stuck in Octoberland with my amazing husband Anthony Real First Name : Schizo-Dani and Eryn Warning : House : Hufflepuff don't judge us we're still badgers grrr... Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Thu Mar 15 2007, 18:35 | |
| Dancing cleared her throat before beginning...
"We all know that Percy is one of the Weasly brothers and therefor by birth has good traits that make him some what of a good person. What most people don't realize is that Percy Weasly is truly evil. Whilst Harry and Percy were both attending school at the same time, they were okay friends and there was no hardships between them in fact Percy was very helpful to Harry and Ron. But the second Percy left school that all changed, Mr. P Weasly went into Journalism for the MoM then became the assistant for Mr. Barty Crouch. And that's when Harry and Percy's friendship ended.
"Throughout Harry's fifth year at hogwarts, Percy sent a letter to Ron to stay clear of Harry for no reason. What kind of monster would try and tear apart the friendship of those two? A friend tearing apart monster is what he his. Percy also ignored his family for times on end he is still not talking to his father, as we all know Family comes first. But percy doesn't respect that, therefor he loses his family bounus points. He's still spreading roumers about Harry, and loses more points." | |
| | | Rigby Dumbledore 3rd Year
Country : Regist. date : 2007-01-30 Number of posts : 4801 Location : Rêveur Real First Name : Kate or Katie Warning : House : Ravenclaw Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Thu Mar 15 2007, 18:59 | |
| Percy is a Weasley which would lead one to believe that he was good. But I believe that the act of betraying a family friend, namely Harry, and turning away from his family has marked Percy as evil. The choices we make are what defines us, and Percy has chosen to put aside everything he knew to sell his soul for ambition. Percy was not born evil, but he made the choices that brought him to the dark path on which he now walks. Percy had every advantage that the Weasly's could give. His mother in particular doted on him. He chose early on to see himself as above his brothers and his family sitituation, so in a way his family's support of him created a sense of snobbery. Percy's differences were noticible in the first book, and steadily the chasm between him and his family grew. By the fourth book Percy has seemed to forget the friendship his family has with Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore, and just as Harry is Dumbledore's man through and through, so to is Percy a Magic of Ministry's man through and through. His ambition eclipses common sense in the fifth book, because for Percy to admit the truth, that the Ministry is wrong, then he would be putting his career at risk. His father almost dies, and still Percy can't reconcile with his family. Despite knowing Harry on a personal level, knowing Dumbledore, he chooses to believe that they are lying. Voldemort is evil incarnate- evil pratically from birth, especially considering the mentally challenged bloodline he comes from. But Percy has had every advantage, even now his mother would open him back with welcome arms. Percy is a different type of evil, but in a way it's even worse than Voldemorts. He knows the right way to live his life but refuses to make changes or sacrifices. Being good requires an act of will, it is often too easy to stand back or to go with the flow. If you know that someone is commiting an illegal act but do nothing to stop him, and and Percy's case your actions actually enable the evil act, then you are just as bad as the criminal. We all have a little voice inside ourselves that tell us what is right and what is not, but Percy has silenced the voice. Even in the sixth book he only visits his family to get in good with the new Minister of Magic, not out of any wish to spend time with his loved ones. Never once has he apologized for any of his actions, and lack there of, never has he tried to explain his position. Ambition can be a good thing, but like anything too much can lead to tragedy. If Percy does not stand up and turn from away from the evil he has embraced then I do not believe he will survive the 7th book. There has not even been a flicker of remorse from Percy, so I'm afraid that he will stay on the side of evil, and that will lead to more heartbreak. | |
| | | streams of silver 5th Year
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-22 Number of posts : 6449 Age : 36 Location : (insert clever statement here) Real First Name : What is real? Warning : House : Hufflepuff, of course. I thought it was obvious... Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Thu Mar 15 2007, 21:23 | |
| (blah this is one hard debate cause I think percy is EEEVIILLL...but anyway, forget I said that ) Okay. I assumed Good meant against voldy and Evil meant together with Voldy. I'll argue about both types of evil then, the evilness of percy secretly being on voldy's side and the evil of percy being openly on the Ministry's side. For the sake of this debate I will temporarily forget everything I ever knew about Percy and I'll attempt to look at him from a fresh perspective. I suggest you do the same. Remember that most of what you know about Percy is through Harry's biased opinion (since the books are written in subjective third person, which means you always know Harry's thoughts and reasoning but nobody else's). Yes, Percy can be difficult and patronizing, bossy and arrogant. He is ambitious and proud and likes to gain respect from those above him. He can also be rude and obnoxious at times. I actually think he has quite a bit in common with Harry, Hermione, and a few more of the so-called 'good guys'. None of those character traits I just listed could prove that the person who has them is evil. Like any character trait, they can be used for good and/or evil. 1--Why I think he would never join Voldy: He likes rules and considers breaking the rules/law a bad thing. At some point during GoF I believe, Ron says that if Fred and George broke wizarding law, Percy would turn them in, 'pull a Crouch' is his exact wording, I think. While we're reading, especially from Harry's perspective, this is such a bad thing, isn't it? I mean, a loyal family member would help his criminal family member escape the law, wouldn't he? Because even if the criminal is ruining people's lives, he's family! That obviously makes it okay for him/her to be free! We don't question Ron when he says this, we simply agree with him, because we like him and he's so childishly earnest about things he believes in. He believes his bossy older brother has the capacity for evil, and we agree without a moment's question. I don't think that what Crouch did, sentence his son to Azkaban with no trial, was fair. However, Crouch junior did end up being a deranged criminal, so perhaps the elder Crouch knew what he was doing. My whole point with this Crouch angle is this: Yes, Percy probably would turn in his family members if they were seriously breaking the law. But if that were so, he would be doing a lot of people a lot of good. Now, why would someone like Percy, who has always thrived on not breaking rules, want to join a group of wizards who make it quite clear that all their goals involve breaking the law? I can't see a way for Percy to be a Death Eater that would keep him free from breaking wizarding law, and this leads me to conclude that he would never become a Death eater. He loves the rules too much to break them. 2--Why I think that Percy siding with the Ministry does not necessarily label him as 'evil.' He cares about his family. Yes, I can hear you all screaming "But he ran off to side with the Ministry! He betrayed his family!" etc. But I think that he joined the Ministry so closely in an effort to protect himself and his family. His family didn't really have anyone on the inside of the Ministry, besides Mr. Weasley. And I quote "...Fudge suspects Dad, he's friendly with Dumbledore, and he's always though Dad's a bit of a weirdo because of his Muggle obsession..." So when Percy joined the Ministry and declared himself to be completely on the Minister's side, that is when a Weasley insider was planted in the Ministry. So Percy, who is ambitious, yes, but also wants to protect his family, decided to join the Ministry and work his way up the ranks. His reasoning could very well have been that the Ministry was going to overrule Dumbledore (this did happen in Book 5). He wanted to be on the side of the Ministry so that if Dumbledore/Harry went down, and began taking the Weasleys with him, there would be someone in the Ministry to save the Weasleys. Dancing, you stated that Percy wanted Ron to sever all ties with Harry. When you think about it, he has good reason for this. The Weasleys' association with Harry has only caused them grief and pain and will continue to do so. Percy doesn't want his family to suffer (and maybe even get killed) so he tells them to distance themselves from Harry. This is selfishness, but it's the selfishness of self-preservation. Percy wants his family to survive. Harry is still NOT a part of the Weasley family, though they would all foolishly like him to be. Every minute a Weasley spends in the company of Harry only increases the risk and danger to them. Harry himself told Hermione, Ginny and Ron to go away. At the end of the 6th book, he broke up with Ginny and told Hermione and Ron that he would go after the Horcruxes and eventually voldy on his own the following year. The fact that they decided to stick with them was their own decision, loyal but foolish. They are setting themselves up for pain, torture and perhaps death. Percy warned his family to stay away because deep down he loves them and doesn't want them to get hurt. I don't think those are the feelings and actions of an evil person. Now, Kate, you said that Percy never attempted to explain his actions. Let me point you towards Book 5, page 72. He tells his father exactly why he has chosen the side of the Ministry. Percy believes that Dumbledore's side is going down, and he wants to survive. He is frustrated and upset that his family doesn't agree with him, and storms away vowing to break all ties because his family doesn't understand or appreciate his actions. Percy is being stubborn here, which is a fault but not an evil one. He really believes that he is right. Percy and Mr. Weasley both want to protect the Weasley family, but their opinions on HOW to do so are very different. Every family has their ups and downs, and just because Percy can't gain the approval of his family at one point in time doesn't mean he is evil. Yes, Percy is on the side of the Ministry, but I believe his intentions are ultimately good, and in the 7th book he will reconcile with his family. | |
| | | Caroru HE Owl
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-24 Number of posts : 15490 Age : 32 Location : Finland Real First Name : Caro Warning : House : Gryffindor Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Fri Mar 16 2007, 07:48 | |
| I think that Percy is good.
Yes, that seems very lame, but hey, have you ever thought about how Percy's character is like? I think he's just not brave enough - which makes me wonder what he does in Gryffindor BUT ANYWAY - so he seeks support of those who have power and money - which he never had, really. Suuuuuure, he could join Voldie and be all mwahahhaaa, but come on, Percy is not evil :D Maybe he thinks somewhere back in his head that being brave just isn't enough at times? Maybe he thinks that the 'good' side doesn't come out that well from the war?
Another thing that makes me wonder, if he really is good or evil is in fact this: When people are scared, we tend to deny the things we are scared of, and this creates a so called 'safety space' around us, and we actually start believing that everything's fine, there's no such thing as "Voldemort will make a come back!" (...with a talk show, hehe!)
This could be quite believable... if the Ministry hadn't been attacked in OotP! DARN THEM :D So now when the whooooooole wizarding world knows about Voldemort's "great" comeback (psh..), Percy could apologize for being a stupid git he was and make peace with his family, right? Well come on, you don't seriously think he would do that!? The Weasleys may be poor, but they are loving, caring and proud, so he won't do that! This is what I think, of course ^^ Besides, you could ask yourselves this:
Would you be able to swallow your pride and do something like that? In all honesty, could you? I know I couldn't :D | |
| | | Snapes_girl 1st Year
Country : Regist. date : 2006-10-24 Number of posts : 6274 Age : 40 Location : Indiana Real First Name : Nancy Warning : House : Slytherin - Where I have always belonged Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Fri Mar 16 2007, 08:15 | |
| Percy is good!!!!!!!!!
Look, he is a Weasley and he was brought up right, with great parents. He is just a little too into the power trip he is on because of his Minisrty of Magic job. Eventually he will see he is being a pompous jerk and will come around again. He will come to realize the Ministry of Magic is on the same side as his parents are. He will beg their forgiveness and after a few words with The twins and Ron, I am sure he will be back in their good graces!
He was always a good guy before the power trip so I think he is still that good guy. He just needs to find it again. Yes, back in school he was a bit of a rule warden, but he was still good. That old Percy is still there....we just need to shake him up a bit!! | |
| | | Kit 1st Year
Regist. date : 2006-12-12 Number of posts : 257 Age : 35 Warning : House : Ravenclaw Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Fri Mar 16 2007, 08:42 | |
| Just because he is loyal in the fourth book to the Ministry of Magic does not mean he is evil. That is a different kind of loyalty. People can be stubborn by nature, which is what Percy is, to be able to overcome the impressions left by his brothers, both younger and older.
Furthermore, has anyone wondered what it would be klike if Percy was another spy on the ministry? It would then make sense to cut ties with his family, as the Weasleys are known as Dumbledore's supporters. You might say that his "evil" ness started in fourth year, when such a step was unneccessary. My response is that he was ambitious at the time, and supporting the ministry at that time cannot be counted as evil, as Voldemort had not recovered his corporal form. | |
| | | WaterLily 5th Year
Regist. date : 2006-02-28 Number of posts : 2853 Age : 34 Location : England - So wet... Warning : House : GRYFFINDOR! Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Fri Mar 16 2007, 09:17 | |
| What kind of family is the Weasleys? A loving, caring, and overall happy family, right? So how could Percy ever want to give that up, unless he thought they were wrong and bad? Nobody in their right minds would voluntarily sever ties with an amazing family because they wanted to spy. He must be evil!
Also, consider the letter he wrote to Harry and Ron. Maybe he thought that Harry was genuinely not good for Ron, but that is no reason to intervene. It is possible that Percy wanted to break them apart when he could see what they could do together, and how his family was helping Harry to develop as someone who could oppose the Ministry... | |
| | | streams of silver 5th Year
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-22 Number of posts : 6449 Age : 36 Location : (insert clever statement here) Real First Name : What is real? Warning : House : Hufflepuff, of course. I thought it was obvious... Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Fri Mar 16 2007, 12:23 | |
| (yay! the percy-is-GOOD club has arrived! and now that I've thought about this I've really decided that Percy IS good. mwahaha. I've convinced myself. XD)
WL, you say that you don't understand how Percy could give up his loving family. Well, many spies sacrifice the people they love for the good of everyone else. They sacrifice their own needs and wants so that the rest of wizardkind should be safe. If a spy severs ties with his family, this does not mean he is evil. It means he is devoted to his task and he will do what it takes to get it done.
You say that there was no reason for Percy to intervene. Ron is his youngest brother! Of course there was reason for Percy to mix in. Especially since Percy has always been bossy and arrogant and believed that he knew best for everyone. Percy's intentions by sending that letter were good. He only wanted to prevent his family from getting hurt. It is inevitable that Harry will get hurt. But Percy doesn't want his family to get dragged into that as well.
He is purposely blinding himself to the truth, perhaps, as Caree said. But that does not make him evil.
If his family were in great danger, or even if Harry were in danger of being killed, and Percy was nearby, I think he would help them out. I doubt he would stand idly by and watch them die, as someone evil would do. I believe he would even sacrifice his life if necessary. He is a good person at heart. | |
| | | Rigby Dumbledore 3rd Year
Country : Regist. date : 2007-01-30 Number of posts : 4801 Location : Rêveur Real First Name : Kate or Katie Warning : House : Ravenclaw Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sun Mar 18 2007, 12:14 | |
| So now Percy is a spy for the good side, and his rude rebuffing of his family is for their own protection? Where is the proof that he is anything but a selfish, self-absorbed, self-serving git? He might not be on Voldemorts side, but he is part of a Ministry that by it's very inaction enabled Voldemort and his cronies to gain power again. One does not have to commit evil acts to be evil. Percy can see the pain that his mother is in, and instead of putting aside their differences or trying to find a middle ground he instead turns his back on his family again and again. True goodness almost by definition requires some self-sacrifice. Percy is evil, content to take whatever side he thinks he can succeed in. If Voldemort wins, do you really think that Percy will fight him? I tell you he will not! Percy will continue to do what he has always done, he will brown nose Voldemort and I think it Voldy ordered it , Percy would destroy his whole family. There will be no redemption of this character, his ego will not allow it. | |
| | | Caroru HE Owl
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-24 Number of posts : 15490 Age : 32 Location : Finland Real First Name : Caro Warning : House : Gryffindor Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sun Mar 18 2007, 12:53 | |
| Streams here is making a point! (as does all the other Percy-is-GOOD people hehehe...) But i don't think Percy is the type of guy who would sacrfice his life for someone else. Don't get me wrong, Percy is good, okay, yes, sure, BUT he's a coward. Being a coward doesn't make anyone evil, right? Okay, maybe after a while he might get over his cowardness, maybe he WILL sacrifice himself for Harry, or something, but i just don't see him as a person that would do so... i just see a person who is terribly lost. | |
| | | streams of silver 5th Year
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-22 Number of posts : 6449 Age : 36 Location : (insert clever statement here) Real First Name : What is real? Warning : House : Hufflepuff, of course. I thought it was obvious... Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sun Mar 18 2007, 14:38 | |
| (lol caree ^_~)
Percy is a bit confused maybe, but he is a gryffindor...I was banking on that when I said perhaps he would sacrifice himself. Those foolish gryffies tend to do that sort of thing.
Kate, I already said in my first post why Percy would never want to join Voldy. If voldy took over, the wizarding world would be in chaos, all the rules overthrown. Percy LIVES for rules and order.
He chose the Ministry because he thought that what they were doing was most effective to stop Voldy from coming to power. Then when the poor boy realized that in fact his family/Dumby were correct, his pride was hurt (aww) and now he is just being stubborn. He is being insensitive by still not communicating with his family, but that does NOT make him evil.
He made a mistake and he is having a hard problem admitting that. Many GOOD people struggle with this problem as well. I still don't understand how you can equate Percy joining the Ministry with Percy joining Voldy. The two are still on opposite sides.
Harry has always defied 'the system' because they only wanted to use him. But they still wanted to use him for good. The Ministry at its core isn't evil, and the fact that Percy joined the Ministry can NOT definitely prove that he is evil. | |
| | | Caroru HE Owl
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-24 Number of posts : 15490 Age : 32 Location : Finland Real First Name : Caro Warning : House : Gryffindor Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Tue Mar 20 2007, 10:27 | |
| Exactly! No matter how daft and blaah Percy is, he would never join Voldemort! I mean come on, the guy probably sleeps with the holy books of rules... or whatever. Even in school he was a real rulefollower (is that a word!? :D) so why would he have changed since then? ...exactly. ^^ | |
| | | Kit 1st Year
Regist. date : 2006-12-12 Number of posts : 257 Age : 35 Warning : House : Ravenclaw Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Tue Mar 20 2007, 12:26 | |
| Lolz, percy is too goody-goody to follow Voldemort. He's one who will always go for what the rules say, and Voldemort is as far from rules as possible, esp. with all the killing | |
| | | Rigby Dumbledore 3rd Year
Country : Regist. date : 2007-01-30 Number of posts : 4801 Location : Rêveur Real First Name : Kate or Katie Warning : House : Ravenclaw Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Tue Mar 20 2007, 14:46 | |
| Okay Streams, I get your point. Percy loves rules, it's his weakness. The point I'm trying to make is what happens if Voldemort is suddenly the one making the rules? Percy is good at self-preservation after all. Being afraid does not make one bad, being a coward does. Good people are often scared, but the difference between them and cowards is that they act regardless of the danger and the risk. They consistently choose the right thing to do, the right path to walk. Percy is not one to risk himself, even for his family. He sticks by a ministry that labeled Harry a liar and portrayed him as a crazy person, a ministry that when it finally can no longer bury it's head in the sand tries to make Harry their poster boy. Percy ignored the truth because lies were easier. That does not make a good person, I submit that it makes for a evil person indeed. | |
| | | streams of silver 5th Year
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| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Tue Mar 20 2007, 15:41 | |
| But Kate, Voldemort doesn't work with rules. Voldy's decisions are based largely on his own impulses. Whatever works for him becomes the new rule. In the Ministry, Percy gets to work his way up. Percy is not stupid. He grew up in a wizarding household that was against Dark wizards, and he knows quite well that none of the DE's can ever overtake voldy. If Percy works in the Ministry, he has a chance (even though it's a slight one) to become Minister. If he joined the DE's he would never become greater than Voldy, even if he wanted to.
So he wouldn't want to join voldy, because Percy is very ambitious and he wants to reach the top.
Percy is a Gryffie. How can you say he is a coward if he was a gryffie? If his real character would've been purely ambitious and a coward to boot, he definitely would've been sorted into Slytherin.
I already explained in a previous post why I think Percy chose the Ministry. At the time, he thought that their course of action was the right one. And I still don't understand why, if Percy DOES still believe that the Ministry is right, this makes him evil.
THE MINISTRY IS NOT EVIL. yes, there are some corrupt people in the ministry. but there were corrupt people in Hogwarts as well. I don't see how you can say Percy is evil just because he chose the Ministry's way, and not Dumby's way. | |
| | | Rigby Dumbledore 3rd Year
Country : Regist. date : 2007-01-30 Number of posts : 4801 Location : Rêveur Real First Name : Kate or Katie Warning : House : Ravenclaw Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Wed Mar 21 2007, 00:49 | |
| Evil is not always easy to see. Evil does not always come in the form of people like Voldemort with his snake like eyes and creepy deameanor. Sometimes evil looks like a nice red-headed young man. And I'll make this point again, Percy does not have to follow Voldemort to be evil.
Percy was a Gryffindor, that's true. But how do we know that the sorting hat didn't consider putting him in another house like Harry or Hermione? Not that it matters now because Percy is out of Hogwarts and no longer a true Weasley. He turned his back on his family and his friend when they needed him the most. A man is judged by his actions, and Percy's have been dishonorable in the past few years.
The world is not black and white, but many shades of gray, Percy has steadily been slipping into the darkness for a long time. Just because he's a not a deatheater doesn't mean that its impossible for him to be a bad person! Percy has a politician's heart, and he has a price. He can be bought or sold. If Harry had agreed to be the poster boy for the Ministry then Percy would have suddenly be on the Harry train again. If Percy continues living his life for the pursuit of power and ambition, he will lose his soul. Percy is also the worst kind of liar, because he lies to himself. The boy is a far cry from any definition of Good.
(Okay, Percy is Evil Debaters, I'm feeling kind of alone now!) | |
| | | Dancingsunset 1st Year
Regist. date : 2006-08-03 Number of posts : 8545 Age : 31 Location : Stuck in Octoberland with my amazing husband Anthony Real First Name : Schizo-Dani and Eryn Warning : House : Hufflepuff don't judge us we're still badgers grrr... Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Wed Mar 21 2007, 19:49 | |
| (I'm here don't worry just taking a short break)
In agreement to Rigby just because he's not a deatheater doesn't mean he's not evil, anyone can be evil. Evil is turning you're back on what you used to believe. Percy may be a gryffindor but as it says in the song "brave and true" he is brave there's no denying that, he was brave enough to stand up for what he believe and not doing what his parents say, "takes a great deal of courage to stand up to your enmies but a great deal more to stand up to your friends." (Dumbledore SS or PS) This could prove that Percy is really a good gryffindor.
Percy was once true, you are always true UNTIL you lose your innocence, Percy wasn't true to his family he didn't support their ideas he wanted them to follow his own. Percy Weasly follows any orders that the MoM give him, wouldn't this include 'Killing the Potter boy' 'giving us clues to your families actions' and many more, Percy is like a trained dog, 'Sit! Stay! Good boy' thats how his mind works. Following orders makes him vulnerable, and weak.
(sorry for not being here sooner) | |
| | | Caroru HE Owl
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-24 Number of posts : 15490 Age : 32 Location : Finland Real First Name : Caro Warning : House : Gryffindor Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Fri Mar 23 2007, 07:17 | |
| (Percy is goooooooooooooooood...)
What Rigby said reminded me of the movie Chocolat, hehe. Anyway, I'm obviously with Dancing on this one: it takes loads of courage to stand up to your friends, true. He might not be the nicest guy alive, but he's certainly not evil. Just because he turned his back at his fmaily and friends, doesn't mean he's evil, does it now?
Even if the circumstances are a lot different, we could compare Percy to Sirius. Sirius turned his back to his family (of course, he got kicked out and disowned from the family lol...). He believed in different things as they, right? So did Percy! Does it make Sirius evil because he believed in different things? No! So tell me, why would it make Percy evil?
(Of course, you can never compare the Weasleys with the Blacks xD) | |
| | | Rigby Dumbledore 3rd Year
Country : Regist. date : 2007-01-30 Number of posts : 4801 Location : Rêveur Real First Name : Kate or Katie Warning : House : Ravenclaw Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sat Mar 24 2007, 11:55 | |
| You're right, Caroru, you can't compare the Weasleys to the Blacks. The Weasley's are a loving, good family that need Percy's help in these troubling times. But Percy is blindly following his path to ambition, regardless of who it hurts, whether it be his family, Harry, or Mr. Crouch. This debate is asking you to decide if Percy is Good or Evil, not if he's Just Jerky or Evil. On the scale between good and evil I believe Percy tips it towards the side of evil. He's not evil on purpose, it's just a result of his ambitions. Percy cares about himself first and foremost, much like a sociopath, it's almost as if he can't empathize with his family, can't put himself in their shoes. Voldemort might have divided his soul into horcruzes, but Percy is throwing his away. By turning his back of his family, Percy isn't just stating his independance, he is ignoring everything that they have taught him, ignoring his mother's pleas. You have to ask yourself, if you had to stand and fight side by side with Percy, could you trust him not to throw you to the wolves? | |
| | | Caroru HE Owl
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-24 Number of posts : 15490 Age : 32 Location : Finland Real First Name : Caro Warning : House : Gryffindor Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sat Mar 24 2007, 12:11 | |
| But do you really believe that the world is filled with people who would sacrifice their lives for someone else? Sure, there are those who would, but Percy is not one of them. And just because he's not like that, doesn't mean he's evil. And if you think about yourself, does that make you evil? No! Define evil. I think he's a good person, maybe not a brave and nice one, but it doesn't make him evil. | |
| | | Rigby Dumbledore 3rd Year
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| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sat Mar 24 2007, 13:35 | |
| Caroru, you said yourself. Percy isn't brave or nice. How can you be a good person and not be nice? I think the definition for evil as it applies to Percy is that his actions are always self-serving, regardless of the consequences to others. He is not a good person, and so for the sake of our debate, he falls pretty squarely on the side of evil. Percy doesn't like rules so much as he likes enforcing them, and in time he will be no better than Umbridge, who I imagine started off just like Percy, only the love of power warped her as it is warping Percy now. | |
| | | streams of silver 5th Year
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-22 Number of posts : 6449 Age : 36 Location : (insert clever statement here) Real First Name : What is real? Warning : House : Hufflepuff, of course. I thought it was obvious... Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sat Mar 24 2007, 20:05 | |
| Kate, I can think of plenty of people who I don't particularly like because they are not nice. But they are not evil...in a matter of life or death, they wouldn't just stand by and allow someone who didn't deserve it to die. (mind you, even if they did save someone's life, I wouldn't like them.)
The best example I can think of this in the HP world would be the Minister of Magic, rufus scrimgeour. He hasn't been particularly NICE towards Harry. He wanted to use Harry, but only so that the entire wizarding population should be assured that they were safe. He didn't want a mass panic.
Now, maybe his reasoning was wrong. Maybe it would be better for everyone to be on their guard, rather than be assured that all was safe. But even though is reasoning was wrong and his actions not very nice, his intentions were good. He still doesn't promote killing people as a fun thing.
It is often very hard to see through the gray area that separates good and evil. Many people have good intentions but make the wrong choices. I believe Percy to be one of those people. He thought that he was best protecting his family by siding with the Ministry. He thought his parents didn't realize the depth of the evil they were facing by siding with Harry. And he thought he could make things better by joining the Ministry.
As for the bravery bit, I must say I think you're wrong. It takes quite a bit of bravery to stand up to your family and tell them that you think they are wrong.
An even better proof of Percy's bravery is in his past: He was a gryffie prefect. Now, you may argue that when he was sorted there were many houses he could've gotten sorted into. But I'm sure that five years later, his character was already firmly in place. And then, he was chosen to be a prefect.
He was selected as a gryffie prefect because he had the qualities of the gryffie house. We see this with all the prefects. Malfoy is a prefect because he is a shining example of a slythie. So Percy, we must assume was also a good example of a gryffie, and that would mean he is undeniably brave.
I don't see how you can compare Percy to Umbridge. Umbridge has proved that she delights in other people's pain (that horrid quill, for example) but Percy has given no indication that he was happy when other people were being hurt. | |
| | | Caroru HE Owl
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| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sun Mar 25 2007, 05:17 | |
| Exactly, streams. There are people that aren't nice - at all - but they're not evil. Some people use their unkindness as a defense mechanism. They're too scared to let anyone near, and to be truthful, nice people get hurt more often. So yes, Percy is a scared little creature, not evil. | |
| | | Rigby Dumbledore 3rd Year
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| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sun Mar 25 2007, 13:17 | |
| I believe I said the Percy was on his way to becoming like Unbridge, not that they on the same level at the moment. The one thing I know to be true is that power corrupts, Percy is power hungry, and there may come a time when he does delight in the pain of others. Percy isn't in school anymore, he has turned his back on Dumbledore and Hogwarts, can you honestly say that he is displaying any Gryffyndor qualities at the present time? Turning your back on your family when they need you isn't bravery. He is afraid to be connected to them, and to Harry or Dumbledore, so I don't buy the argument that he is working in the Ministry for his family. Good people do not do the things Percy has been doing, they do not turn their backs on their families, only coming to visit them so that they can get in good with the new minister of magic, and not because they miss them. Bravery isn't about not being fearful, it's being scared and still standing up for what's right, Percy is just being fearful, and that fear may well destroy him. | |
| | | Remus Lupin 1st Year
Regist. date : 2007-02-27 Number of posts : 194 Age : 40 Warning : House : GRYFFINDOR Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sun Mar 25 2007, 13:33 | |
| Yes percy is a power hungry individual and is more similar to brouch who was willing to sentence his own son (though) for good reasoning as well. Percy will have no problem doing that but now we must agree the ministry is all on the same team but diff. approaches. Percy will not ask forgiveness but i do believe he may be the cause of death in his family or of his own in book 7. | |
| | | streams of silver 5th Year
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-22 Number of posts : 6449 Age : 36 Location : (insert clever statement here) Real First Name : What is real? Warning : House : Hufflepuff, of course. I thought it was obvious... Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sun Mar 25 2007, 14:32 | |
| So Remus, are you saying that because Crouch sentenced his own son to Azkaban he is evil? Remember, his son turned out to be a PSYCHOPATH. That dad knew what he was doing. That is my point.
Sometimes we have to put aside our love if we realize that our loved ones are making a mistake (or hurting other people, in the case of Crouch).
That was Percy's reasoning. He believed his family was making a mistake and turned against them. This does not make him evil. Even though Percy was actually the one making the mistake, that still doesn't prove he is evil. His intentions were good. End of story.
(oh lol remus I just realized you're not IN this debate...you can't post here if you didn't sign up first...lol...) | |
| | | Remus Lupin 1st Year
Regist. date : 2007-02-27 Number of posts : 194 Age : 40 Warning : House : GRYFFINDOR Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sun Mar 25 2007, 15:08 | |
| opps sorry, i thought it was free for all.... | |
| | | Dancingsunset 1st Year
Regist. date : 2006-08-03 Number of posts : 8545 Age : 31 Location : Stuck in Octoberland with my amazing husband Anthony Real First Name : Schizo-Dani and Eryn Warning : House : Hufflepuff don't judge us we're still badgers grrr... Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Mon Mar 26 2007, 08:44 | |
| (That's okay =) okay back to the debate)
Percy is plain and simple evil, he may have had intentions of good but the actions were of evil and sorrow. When Percy deserted his family he left his mother in a state of depression, and he didn't care. When Molly sent him a christmas sweater out of the kindness of her heart and the love of her son, he with a cold heart and an evil intention he sent it back without even a note!
What kind of good person would do that to their mother?? | |
| | | streams of silver 5th Year
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-22 Number of posts : 6449 Age : 36 Location : (insert clever statement here) Real First Name : What is real? Warning : House : Hufflepuff, of course. I thought it was obvious... Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Mon Mar 26 2007, 12:14 | |
| Because when families have disagreements, they block out the love they feel and they try to be cold. Percy is upset that his family didn't agree with him, so he stopped talking to them. This is hard for him as well, but he is stubborn and stuck and now he can't figure out a way to get out of the whole sticky mess without giving up his pride. Haven't YOU ever had a family situation where nobody wanted to give in and everyone ended up feeling horrible? I know that I've had such situations, but that doesn't mean I am evil. Unless...hehee, does that mean I'm evil? | |
| | | Rigby Dumbledore 3rd Year
Country : Regist. date : 2007-01-30 Number of posts : 4801 Location : Rêveur Real First Name : Kate or Katie Warning : House : Ravenclaw Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Mon Apr 02 2007, 10:55 | |
| Where's the proof that it's hard on Percy? You are seeing qualities in him that have never manifested. Percy wants to be on top, and he wants to be right more than he wants to be good. Families can disagree and get in fights, but when push comes to shove they are there for one another. Percy is ashamed to be a Weasley, he is not a good person. Maybe there is hope for Percy, maybe he will be redeemed in the 7th book, but most likely Percy will continue down his path of destruction. Being good takes effort, and he makes none. If he can only be good or evil, than surely he is evil, for his heart is cold and greedy. | |
| | | potterchic 1st Year
Regist. date : 2007-04-26 Number of posts : 36 Age : 29 Location : at Hagrid's hut, playing with Fang Real First Name : parents won't let me tell Warning : House : Ravenclaw Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Sun May 06 2007, 18:57 | |
| I'll sign up for Ravenclaw. Even if two have already signed up.( I'm good at debating!) LOVE, Potterchic | |
| | | Amy Retired Deputy Head : 5th year
Country : Regist. date : 2006-02-22 Number of posts : 11746 Age : 37 Location : England Real First Name : Amy Warning : House : Gryffindor Crest : Wand : Exam not taken Award Bar :
| Subject: Re: Percy: Good or Evil? **CLOSED** Tue May 08 2007, 11:39 | |
| This debate is now closed (sorry for the delay!)
Well done everyone, this was very interesting to read. Your points are as follows:
Gryffindor Caroru: 50 WaterLily: 30
Ravenclaw Kit: 25 Rigby Dumbledore: 50
Hufflepuff Dancingsunset: 35 Streams of Silver: 50
Slytherin Snapes_girl: didn't post OUTxxWITHxxAxxBANG: didn't post | |
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