Was Dumbledore right to keep everything from Harry?*STARTED*

Was Dumbledore right to keep everything from Harry until he was older? Do you think Dumbledore treated Harry like a puppet on a string? This debate will focus around Dumbledore's decisions regarding Harry throughout the series.

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SIDES

For: Dumbledore was right to keep everything from Harry
Against: Dumbledore was wrong to keep everything from Harry

PARTICIPANTS

Gryffindor
amberg93
RhiannonMei

Slytherin
Raistlin the Wizard
drkngelcat

Hufflepuff
Kendra_McKie
streams of silver

Ravenclaw
Rigby Dumbledore
Elana

Sign me up for Gryffindor

ME for Gryffindor!

I'd like to join the team of debating Ravenclaws. Figured I'd give it a shot.

Bookie Edit: Ack. Just realized that houses can only seem to have two people each. If that's so, please disregard this post. If not, I'd still like to sign up!

sign me up for slytherin

I'm sorry Justin, there are only two places per House. However, keep an eye out for future debates.

Only two Hufflepuff's needed before the debate can begin! Come on Huffles!

Sign me up for Hufflepuff!

And I'll sign up for Hufflepuff. ^^

We have enough people signed up, this debate can now begin! Find your sides below, and remember, the more detailed your posts the more points you will earn. The maximum number of points you're able to earn is 50.

Sides:

FOR: Dumbledore was right to keep everything from Harry

RhiannonMei debating for Gryffindor
Raistlin the Wizard debating for Slytherin
Kendra_McKie debating for Hufflepuff
Elana debating for Ravenclaw

AGAINST: Dumbledore was wrong to keep everything from Harry

amberg93 debating for Gryffindor
drkangelcat debating for Slytherin
streams of silver debating for Hufflepuff
Rigby Dumbledore debating for Ravenclaw

Let the debate begin!

Albus Dumbledore was a very wise man, despite how he acted during his younger years. He was a master of Occlumency and Legilimency, was quite good at reading people, and was, I believe, one of the greatest wizards who ever lived. All in all, I think it's fair to say that he was quite the intelligent person. Harry Potter was a young boy and known to often act rashly and without rational thought. For example, during the 2nd task of the Triwizard Tournament, he saved Gabrielle Delacour on a whim (I'm not saying it was a bad thing!) and when he was sent the vision of Voldemort torturing Sirius, was all ready to go to the Ministry of Magic, wands blazing, without checking out the story. It was only Hermione's advice that kept him from making such a huge mistake as to go to 'save' Sirius without letting an adult know first (Snape).

Dumbledore was definitely in the right when he kept everything from Harry, because from the above examples, who knows what Harry would have done, if given the information during his younger school years at Hogwarts? If Dumbledore had told him that he was a Horcrux, then Harry might have taken the plunge and committed suicide; if that had happened, then where would the Wizarding World be today? Under Lord Voldemort's tyranny, of course. If Dumbledore had told Harry about the prophecy before the time he actually did, then Harry might have gone directly to the MoM to try to destroy the prophecy himself so Voldemort couldn't hear it. Or, on the other hand, he could have tried to do everything to prove the prophecy wrong, whilst playing into its smoky hands. Both scenarios would probably have ended in disaster.

In conclusion, I believe Dumbledore was being his usual intelligent self by keeping things from Harry until the boy needed to know. Harry has never been exactly calm, collected, and rational, so I think Dumbledore wanted to stay on the safe side of the street when giving him information.

I believe Dumbledore was WRONG to keep everything from Harry. The great man himself admitted that perhaps he should have been more open with Harry, and he regretted not telling Harry everything. By keeping important info from Harry, Dumbledore just made already difficult situations into nervewracking ones. Sometimes it helps to know the plan, rather than just being told and ordered what to do. Soldiers who volunteer are the ones that fight best, and why is that? Because in their hearts, they want to fight. They are not fighting simply because someone of greater power ordered them to do so.

Some of you mentioned Harry not being mature enough, but really that doesn't make any sense. Would anyone EVER be mature enough to accept their own death quietly? Just about everyone in their last moments experiences a longing to live. I believe that the information helped Harry to accept the fact that he would probably die. If Dumbledore just gave another order for Harry to go into the forest and face Voldemort, without explaining, Harry would probably have reacted differently, consulted with his friends, changed the plan, etc.

But because he FINALLY had all his questions answered, he was able to make a mature, clear and informed decision.

I also don't think he would have committed suicide knowing what was in his future. The kid had a pretty hard life already, and that didn't make him crack. Imagine telling a kid--'You've had a sucky life so far, I know, sorry kid. Now here's a final choice. Pick one. Either you're gonna die when you stand up to some evil dude, and you'll be a huge hero! Or, ya know, you could commit suicide. Your choice, of course.'

Would he really have committed suicide? I don't think so. Harry was a very strong person to have survived such a disturbing and abusive childhood with his personality intact. If Dumbledore would have told him, sure it would've been a nasty shock, but after a while Harry would've gotten used to the idea and he would have had more time to PLAN.

Dumbledore's lovely plan very nearly failed, it was a flukey thing that Harry was there at the moment Snape died. There was no way Dumbledore could've known that would happen, and it almost ruined the whole plan. Dumbledore was too vain and proud and he held his little ideas close to his heart. He had only the good of everyone in mind, but too often Dumbledore made the mistake of THINKING he knew everything. Because the great man knew an awful lot, but he did NOT know everything, and he was NOT always right.

streams of silver wrote:

Would anyone EVER be mature enough to accept their own death quietly?

Let's take a look at Nicholas Flamel. Nicholas Flamel did not wish to die whatsoever and thus created The Sorcerer's Stone. However, after realizing those in evil contempt wished to possess the stone for the wrong reasons, he accepted the need for the destruction and accepted the terms of his death.

I don't think necessarily maturity is the reason one does or does not accept death. Acceptance of death comes at different times for many. Dumbledore accepted his own death as a sacrifice to the rest of the world. People accept death when they feel they have accomplished what they have wanted to in their lives. Dumbledore had accomplished more than many wizards,and he came to terms with his death quite easily.

Harry shows an inability to analyze a situation and come up with the proper solution. For instance, when Harry and Ron could not get to the platform, what does he do? He and Ron decide it's just dandy to take someone else's car and fly it to school. If Harry had a rash bone in his body, he would have thought to ask for help first. In Prisoner of Azkaban, Harry would have run into Hagrid's to steal Scabbers if Hermione hadn't stopped him. Harry went to the Department of Mysteries because he didn't thoroughly check 12 Grimmauld Place. Harry has shown very rash and irrational thought in his fight against Lord Voldemort.

What if Dumbledore had told Harry he was a Horcrux earlier? Harry would have just tried to kill himself by stabbing himself with a sword or something because he wouldn't have stopped to think about having Voldemort use the Killing Curse. What if he went far enough to tell Harry that he would live out of the scenario? By not sharing with Harry this fact, Harry went into death truly expecting to die and allowing the magic to work. Dumbledore left the task of manipulating Harry's mind to Snape. If Snape never intended to show Harry those memories, why would he already have them bottled up and ready to go? Seems very unlikely. Sure, maybe Dumbledore didn't know EXACTLY when or how Snape would reveal all of the information to Harry, but he left the task to Snape.

Now, the prophecy:
Let us remember the story of Oedipus. Laius and Jocasta heard the prophecy that Oedipus would kill his father and marry his mother. They decided they would avoid this prophecy by having a shepherd kill their son. However, the shepherd never did that and instead raised the child, who ended up unknowingly killing his father and marrying his mother.

Harry would have done the same exact thing. He would have tried to avoid his prophecy and end up fulfilling it, and in his scenario of rash thought, he could have ended up dead and let the Dark Lord prevail.

In conclusion, Harry is a rash prat who can't take two seconds to think and isn't mature enough to handle an entire scenario without being angsty. XDD.

Kendra_McKie wrote:

Let us remember the story of Oedipus. Laius and Jocasta heard the prophecy that Oedipus would kill his father and marry his mother. They decided they would avoid this prophecy by having a shepherd kill their son. However, the shepherd never did that and instead raised the child, who ended up unknowingly killing his father and marrying his mother.

I agree Kendra. When people are faced with life-changing facts, they often act rashly. As per the story of Oedipus, he found out that he had killed his father and married his mother. When he found out, he blinded himself, putting out his eyes. You can't tell me THAT isn't rash behaviour! And please remember that at that time, Oedipus was King of Thebes and a mature, grown man. Harry, in 1-4th years was in no way completely mature or grown up. Oedipus, with only brute force to help him, had put out his own eyes. What would Harry have done, with magic, to himself if he'd been told?

I have to agree with Kate here, it is because Harry was kept in the dark so often that his decisions were illogical. Though Dumbledore didn't need to tell Harry everything at once, he should have explained more and he should not have withheld vital information from Harry for so long.

And June and Kat, I just have to ask: You both claim that if Harry would have been told earlier, he would have done something rash, like kill himself. WHY then pray tell, did he not do so when he learned the truth at last? What stopped him then, from killing himself rather than going to Voldemort for the final battle?

Why did he accept his death so calmly, if he is so rash, and what proof do you have that he would not have had the same reaction (accept his death rationally) a year earlier?

As Harry grew up, he experienced a multitude of events, most importantly deaths, which opened his eyes to the world. In his first through third years, before he had experienced seeing death, Harry did a number of things that could be classified as ‘rash’, because of his immaturity. During his first year, Harry was sure that Snape was the one trying to get the Sorceror’s Stone… and when he knew that Snape was going to steal it, hurried beneath the trap door to stop him. Yes, he took Ron and Hermione with him, and yes, he tried to let Professor Dumbledore know, but I feel that he should have alerted more people, in case anything happened to him and his friends. Professor McGonagall showed that she didn’t believe him, so I feel he should have told someone else. In his second year, Harry decided to take on the basilisk by himself, telling Ron to wait for him. Not only was the basilisk an extremely dangerous creature, but, as Harry later found out, it was controlled by no other than Lord Voldemort. Even though Harry didn’t know its master at the time, he still knew that there was a larger-than-usual snake with poisonous teeth and deathly eyes… and decided to take it on. True, everything turned out alright in the end, but that was mainly luck and Fawkes. Without his remarkable healing tears and Harry’s innate ability to escape situations that would normally kill anyone else, Harry and Ginny would most likely have died at the end of the book, and then where would the story have been. In Harry’s third year, in the Shrieking Shack, he and his friends found out that Sirius Black was hiding there. Immediately, Harry was determined to kill him and Professor Lupin, if the Professor got in the way. It was only after many moments of rage that he calmed down enough to be persuaded to let Sirius explain himself. Without his calmer friends, Harry might have killed his innocent godfather, because of his rash actions and would-be actions.

After Harry’s fourth year, when he faced Voldemort, lived, and saw Cedric die, he became a little more mature, but not overly so. He was still inclined to give his instincts full rein; they weren’t always right. For example during his History of Magic OWL, Harry received a vision of Voldemort torturing Sirius, and believed it to be true. He was all ready and raring to go save him, but was stopped only by Hermione’s logical reasoning, telling him that he should check by floo first. Although this action didn’t work out because of Kreacher and Umbridge, it would have under any other circumstances, and other people (Sirius) would not have died. (I agree with Hermione about Harry’s ‘saving people thing’). So at the end of the book, we saw that even up to his godfather’s death, Harry was behaving rashly and not like a grown up. During his sixth year, we saw much less of Harry’s un-thought-through actions, because the years beforehand had sobered him and helped him think a bit more. At the end of his sixth year, Dumbledore was killed and though after that, Harry rashly raced after Snape, shooting off spell after spell, he still had matured more than ever before.

To directly answer your question, Streams, Harry did not act rashly when he had learned the truth at last, because of his experiences before hand. Those experiences had helped him understand what he had to do. Also, by that time, he’d seen so many die, like Tonks, Remus, Sirius, Dumbledore, Cedric, Colin, etc., that it would be over his dead body, literally, that anyone else would die as well.

May I just add another thing (in my anti-Harry campaign) - Harry is STUPID. Well, maybe not stupid, but not particularly bright; his only stroke of genius was figuring out the clues Hermione left him in Chamber of Secrets.

Now let us return to the topic of Harry being kept in the dark. Dumbledore kept Harry in the dark for another reason - he knew Voldemort would discover the mental connection between him and Harry. If Dumbledore told Harry the prophecy, Voldemort would have learned of it. Although I still support my belief in Harry's immaturity, stupidity, and rashness, one can assert without any of these opinions that Dumbledore kept Harry in the dark as a sacrifice to the rest of the magical world.

I hate to be blunt (I'm on my school's varsity debate team), but asking me what I would do in a situation is completely irrelevant. I am a different person from Harry with a different mindset and a different set of morals. But I know I wouldn't go chasing after something and break into the Department of Mysteries just because a house-elf who hates me due to my quest to vanquish the Dark Lord, his supreme God, told me that the person I was looking for wasn't home. I'm not THAT stupid.

Yes, Harry fought the battle with the power of love. But love is something MEANINGFUL. If Harry went into the situation of giving himself up to Voldemort without fully expecting death, his HEART would not have been in the situation and thus the love in his HEART would not have won the battle. In order to allow for Snape once again to double-cross Voldemort, there was no other way the memories could have been transferred. It was Snape's memory of the discussion with Dumbledore and consequently Snape's love for Lily that made the memory have a substantially greater impact on Harry than if the memory came from Dumbledore.

Dumbledore had his faults, as discovered in Deathly Hallows. But he did not have faults in his trust issues. He trusted Snape. He asked SNAPE to kill him. Why? Because he knew Snape would do whatever he wanted him to. But of course he doesn't trust Harry. He asks Harry to learn Occlumency. What does Harry do? He says, metaphorically, "I'll show you Dumbledore, since obviously why would you have my best interests at heart" and thus Dumbledore was right not to trust Harry with the information if he was unwilling to protect the information from Voldemort's access.

This debate is now over, well done to everyone who took part!

Your points are as follows:

Gryffindor
amberg93: didn't post
RhiannonMei: 25

Hufflepuff
Kendra_McKie: 25
streams of silver: 17

Ravenclaw
Rigby Dumbledore: 8
Elana: 5

Slytherin
Raistlin the Wizard: 5
drkangelcat: didn't post