Dumbledore and the invisibility cloak

Why did Dumbledore have James' invisibility cloak at the time of James' death, given that Dumbledore could make himself invisible without a cloak?

All i could find from JK's own mouth is:

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Prior to posting this I had a quick look on-line, and realised that some fans have been speculating about this question. However, nobody has ever asked me about it, and they really should have done. Just to allay the fears of the justifiably suspicious, this isn't what we in the know call 'a Mark Evans situation.'* There IS a significant - even crucial - answer.

http://www.jkrowling.com

So what is this crucial answer? I never thought about it before seeing this, but now i really want to find out.

On another board, the discussion is focussed around whether the cloak was used by someone else who was at Godric's Hollow that fateful night - and a lot of people seem to think it was Snape. But then this throws up a whole load of other problems and questions - such as why? How did he know where Godric's Hollow is when it was under the fidelius? Why use James' invisibility cloak when DD could have borrowed one of Moody's?

Other theories I've read is that James knew he was going to die, the cloak was a heirloom and so he left it with DD - but I don't think James would have expected death, they were in hiding with a supposedly loyal secret keeper.

Hehe and I've also read that the cloak is a horcrux, but that's one of the more...out there theories I think. :devil:

Edit: I think this belongs more in book seven discussion, so I'm going to move it there.

Duck the Duck wrote:

On another board, the discussion is focussed around whether the cloak was used by someone else who was at Godric's Hollow that fateful night - and a lot of people seem to think it was Snape. But then this throws up a whole load of other problems and questions - such as why? How did he know where Godric's Hollow is when it was under the fidelius? Why use James' invisibility cloak when DD could have borrowed one of Moody's?

I have ofeten wondered whether snape was there. I am not entirely convinced that he is on the side of good, though it might be a possibility that he is good and was there. The only tthing i can think of to place him there was that he had told dumbledore about the plan to kill james and lily and was therefore there under dumbledores orders for some reason - maybe he cast some sort of spell that helped voldemorts sp

Duck the Duck wrote:

isability cloak - why would dumbledore have wanted one anyway. he can turn invisable by other means

[quote="Duck the Duck"]Other theories I've read is that James knew he was going to die, the cloak was a heirloom and so he left it with DD - but I don't think James would have expected death, they were in hiding with a supposedly loyal secret keeper.

I dont think james knew he was going to die, though it is something to think about. Though JK says that the reason is significant and crucial so i would have thought that maybe it will be more than this

Duck the Duck wrote:

Hehe and I've also read that the cloak is a horcrux, but that's one of the more...out there theories I think. :devil:

I agree - i dont think that it will be a horcrux as far as we know voldemort doesnt even know about the cloak


some other theories i have found:

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that James gave the cloak to Dumbledore, because the order find it useful exact like in OotP where Moodys cloak is used to guard the Department of Mysteries. And he didn`t need the cloak, because he was under the Fidelius Charm

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In Book One, Dumbledore says about the cloak:
"Your father happened to leave it in my possession, and I thought you might like it. . . "
PS/SS, Chapter 17
Nowhere does it say that James left it on purpose - maybe he left it behind, and the reason it is "crucial" is that Lily and Harry could have hidden under it?
Maybe James didn't mean to leave the cloak behind

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Maybe James didn't mean to leave the cloak behind

I think James did leave the cloak with Dumbledore, and he meant to as well. Have a look at the following quotes (emphasis mine):

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"Your father left this in my possesion before he died. It is time it was returned to you. Use it well.

A Very Merry Christmas to you.

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"Ah--your father happened to leave it in my possession, and I thought you might like it," Dumbledore's eyes twinkled. "Useful things...your father used it mainly for sneaking off to the kitchens to steal food when he was here."

-PS

So I don't think it was an accident that it was left with Dumbledore.

On the Snape issue - remember in PoA when Snape uses the cloak to eavesdrop on the conversation in the shrieking shack?

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I found this at the base of the Whomping Wilow," said Snape, throwing the cloak aside, careful to keep his wand pointing directly at Lupin's chest. "Very useful, Potter, I thank you..."

-POA

I don't get the impression here that Snape has used it before. Also:

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Harry's fist clenched as they watched Snape skid to a halt next to the tree, looking around. He grabbed the cloak and held it up. "Get your filthy hands off it," Harry snarled under his breath.

-POA

I would imagine that James would have had the same reaction as Harry - knowing the animosity between the two - and I doubt very much that James would have given the cloak to DD knowing it would be used by Snape. Of course, James may have given the cloak to DD without knowing a reason why...*sigh*..I'm going in circles here lol.

I don't think it's as simple as "oh, it's a family heirloom, Harry needs it if we die", because that wouldn't be crucial. That would almost be the same as Harry getting ownership of Grimmauld Place, because he's 'next in line' shall we say.

So..I really don't know what to make of this. And I shall stop rambling because I've just befuddled my poor brain :devil:

lol thats how i feel - JK said its 'crucial' but what?? grrrr i really want to know lol

Look at those two quote you put up:

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Quote 1 Your father left this in my possesion before he died. It is time it was returned to you. Use it well.
A Very Merry Christmas to you.


Quote 2 "Ah--your father happened to leave it in my possession, and I thought you might like it," Dumbledore's eyes twinkled. "Useful things...your father used it mainly for sneaking off to the kitchens to steal food when he was here."

The bits in bold are saying two different things. The first quote gives the impression that he purposly left it to dumbledore, but the second one says the oposite - that it came too him without him being given it.

Am I now rambling? mhahahaaa

I dont even know if these two quotes mean anything but i am being drawn to them lol

argghh i need to figure this out - its really bugging me now lol

That's true, they do seem to be saying different things, but Dumbledore's always been an odd one :devil:

These half questions, half answers that JKR likes to taunt us with are really frustrating!

Hehe I found this post on another board, and it made me laugh:

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You don't have to re-think everything, Ada. Just put Peter there as a rat.

Voldemort disencorporates, leaving behind an empty cloak.

"Holy gosh!" Thinks Snape under his cloak. "I've never seen that before!"

A rat crawls out from the cloak (Peter, who was there in Voldemort's pocket). The rat picks up the wand in his teeth and scurries off.

Snape sends off a Patronus to Dumbledore, "The weirdest thing just happened. Voldemort killed James and (sob!) Lily. Then he tried to kill Harry, but the curse rebounded. His body went up in smoke, but he may just have been turned into a rat. I'm not really sure."

Dumbledore sends a reply. "Interesting. Stay under that cloak. I'm sending Hagrid to pick up Harry. As soon as he gets there, you can come to me. I must hear more."

Dumbledore summons Hagrid. "Hagrid, use this Portkey and pick up baby Harry. Then meet me in Little Whinging."

"Why there?"

"I have a theory--but I'm not sure yet. Just meet me there with Harry."

Hagrid arrives and picks up Harry. Snape apparates to Dumbledore. Snape and Dumbledore use a Pensieve to look through Snape's memory.

"Aha," Dumbledore says. "As I suspected. The Power of Love!"

Snape gives Dumbledore a sour look. "You aren't going to start spouting that hippy garbage again, are you?"

"You always underestimate Love, Severus."

"What about the rat, Headmaster? Do you think the Dark Lord was turned into a rat?"

"Forget the rat, Severus. It isn't important."

Snape rolls his eyes and goes off to abuse firsties with his cool potions speech. Dumbledore contacts the Ministry lets them know that Voldemort failed to kill Harry, and that he's.... gone. Then he continues looking at the memory for hours, searching every angle. Trying to figure out what happened....

-Credit to Montavilla at sugarquill.net

Another thing to think about is the timeline of events. We know that Voldemort murdered the Potters on a Monday evening, because on the opening page of Philosopher's Stone is
the line "When Mr. and Mrs. Dursley woke up on the dull, gray Tuesday our story starts..."

Yet Harry isn't delivered to the Dursley's until that night. So are we to believe that baby Harry was left, unattended in the rubble of his house for near to twenty-four hours whilst the rest of the Wizarding World partied? Hagrid would have arrived at Godric's Hollow sometime late Tuesday evening/early Wednesday morning, and perhaps met Sirius there and borrowed his motorcycle.

I find it very odd indeed that the baby Harry was left alone for so long, especially as the rest of the wizarding world knew of Voldie's downfall - they were out partying all day (as we know by the wizard who Vernon bumped into and from what McG says).

So this leads me to believe that someone else was at Godric's Hollow, watching over baby Harry until DD sent Hagrid. I don't believe it was dumbledore, otherwise he would have brought Harry to the Dursley's himself - so who was it?

lol i love that! And the rat! mhahahaaa

ok getting back to the thing that is fraustrating me to the ends of the earth lol

Duck the Duck wrote:

Another thing to think about is the timeline of events. We know that Voldemort murdered the Potters on a Monday evening, because on the opening page of Philosopher's Stone is
the line "When Mr. and Mrs. Dursley woke up on the dull, gray Tuesday our story starts..."

Yet Harry isn't delivered to the Dursley's until that night. So are we to believe that baby Harry was left, unattended in the rubble of his house for near to twenty-four hours whilst the rest of the Wizarding World partied? Hagrid would have arrived at Godric's Hollow sometime late Tuesday evening/early Wednesday morning, and perhaps met Sirius there and borrowed his motorcycle.

I find it very odd indeed that the baby Harry was left alone for so long, especially as the rest of the wizarding world knew of Voldie's downfall - they were out partying all day (as we know by the wizard who Vernon bumped into and from what McG says).

So this leads me to believe that someone else was at Godric's Hollow, watching over baby Harry until DD sent Hagrid. I don't believe it was dumbledore, otherwise he would have brought Harry to the Dursley's himself - so who was it?

I have never thought of that! oh dear now i am more confused. Something certainly happened at godrics hollow - the crucial bit about the invisability cloak must be to do with that missing part (or possibly not but im going in circles with thought lol)


I read nother theory that it is all about reminding us that dumbledore can become invisable without the use of cloaks which leads onto something about dumbledore not really being dead or is dead but is there somehow - invisable. OR showing that someone else might be invisable in the last book

Also with the quote (see im going around again lol) it mentions 'before he died' soooo that rules out the possibility of dumbledore mealy finding it in the rubble of godrics hollow

The Dumbledore being able to be invisible without a cloak is in Philosopher's Stone as well - when Harry is looking at the mirror of erised and dumbledore appears, he tells him "he has ways of being invisible that don't require a cloak" - or something along those lines.

Now, in an interview, JKR has said that she had to rewrite the very first chapter of Philosopher's Stone several times, because she kept giving away the ending of the book:

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If all the 15 discarded opening chapters of book1 were put together they would almost give the whole story away.

-"harry potter and me" 2001

So we've got several threads to tie up here which could give away the plot:

-the invisibility cloak
-who else was at Godric's Hollow?
-why was Harry left at Godric's Hollow for so long before being brought to the Dursleys?

I think that we can safely ignore the beginning with the Dursley's - but I would think that it's when DD arrives at Privet Drive that we should pay attention to.

Perhaps it's when DD and McG are discussing what brought about Voldie's downfall - Harry - and supposing Harry is a horcrux, this could be something that may have been given away with a few changes of words in this part of the chapter.

Then Hagrid arrives on the scene:

"No sir - house was almost destroyed but I got him out all right before the Muggles started swarmin' around."

So again, we have to believe that no Muggles noticed a ruined house for close to 24 hours after it had been destroyed? This leads me to believe again that there was someone else there, perhaps shielding the house from view until someone came to collect Harry.

They then notice Harry's scar, and McG asks DD if he would remove it. Dumbledore makes a vague comment about he wouldn't if he could - and deflects attention from harry's scar by talking about his own which looks like a map of the london underground. So we could be looking at the possibility of Harry's scar being a horcrux - and this can't be revealed at this point in the books.

Nothing much else happens in this chapter - hagrid says that he's going to take the motorbike back to sirius - did sirius get it before he confronted Peter?

But what does all this have to do with the crucial invisibility cloak?

I dont know if this is relevent - and also it probably says it in the books but i cant find it - why was dumbledore rejected as the secret keeper?

The first chapter bits is very interesting but i still cant make the connection grrrrrrr!!!

perhaps James left the cloak in Dumbledore's possesion so that Dumbledore could have given it to Peter, if Peter needed it. James still trusted him then.

no no no! I cant see that working either! Dumbledore didnt know that peter was the secret keeper. grrr im going around in circles again

what if Dumbledore was the rumored third person at Godric's Hollow?

But Dumbledore wouldn't need the invisibility cloak for that - he can make himself invisible anyway.

And also, again with the question of the timeline - why would DD go to Godrics Hollow, watch them be murdered and leave Harry there for ages without taking him himself.

Also, it's very unlikely that DD would know the location of Godrics Hollow - only the secret keeper knew, right?

Interesting thread and very informative.

looking at whether dumbledore would know the place, isnt it possible he did? the secret keeper can let people know and possibly let dumbledore know -and dumbledore, under the spell, cant repeat it. Also, sometimes dumbledore seems to know more than he either should somehow. I dont know, maybe this isnt relevent but ill come back with more lol

But Dumbledore never knew that Peter was the secret keeper - he believed Sirius was, so I can't see how that would have worked.

another thing i have thought of, though i dont know how relevent, looking at the possibility that james did hand the cloak to dumbledore. Why couldnt he have kept it and used it to either hide himself or his family, as we know that dumbledore can become invisable at will.


What about this though. what if it is as simple as Dumbledore's idea to give Harry the cloak because he wanted Harry not only to feel his parents still love him from beyond the grave, but also so that he would actively explore the Wizarding World and maybe even get into trouble. After all, Dumbledore isn't fooled by cloaks, so he'll make sure Harry doesn't go too far off the deep end.

Just to throw a usual elfie spanner in the works, I am now going to say that it was in fact snape who used the invisability cloak at godrics hollow.

I have typed out more of the theory which has been backed up by another site whose quote I am now going to use.
To read more of my snape theories go to this thread: http://hogwarts-experience.heavenforum.org/viewtopic.forum?t=2773

Below find an excerpt from a live journal http://cmwinters.livejournal.com

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To begin with, all that we know about the happenings at Godric's Hollow on 31 October 1981 (Voldemort went to kill them, James died first, Lily jumped in front of the curse meant for Harry and thus provided some protection for him, Voldemort turned on Harry but the curse rebounded and appeared to have killed Voldemort), is a report you get from an eyewitness.

Now, at Spinner's End, Bellatrix Black Lestrange asks Snape where he was the night the Dark Lord disappeared, so that indicates that Bellatrix was there, and that she has reason to believe Snape was not. Further, Voldemort himself seems to believe this. Voldemort, when he is resurrected, makes mention of three missing Death Eaters, "one, who I believe has left me forever . . ." referring to Snape. We know that it refers to Snape, because at Spinner's End, Snape says to Bellatrix "Yes, the Dark Lord thought I had left him forever, but he was mistaken."

We know that Snape had a life-debt to James. Can anyone figure a better time and way to repay the debt than when the darkest wizard of all time is going to kill the guy, his wife, and his kid? I sure can't.


See, this is what I think happened.
Snape felt the summons, and responded.

He was covered under James' invisibility cloak. (2) Much like Harry was in on top of the Lightning Struck Tower.
He didn't cross into the general meeting, but, like Frank Bryce in GoF, was on the other side of the wall.

Like Peter did in GoF, he whispered the location to Voldemort, and either Snape overheard him, or like Voldemort did in GoF, he repeated what Peter said to him.
OR, they were all masked and cloaked, and Peter wrote it down, like Dumbledore did in OotP, and Snape somehow was able to catch a glimpse of that paper.

Snape Disapparated, and went to Godric's Hollow to argue with the Potters to leave. Because he, like the rest of the world, still thought Sirius was the Secret Keeper, he tried to argue with James that Black had betrayed him. James, knowing that Sirius couldn't have betrayed him even if he'd wanted to , as he was not the Secret Keeper to begin with, didn't leave, thinking that Snape's report was more inaccurate than it was.

Now, Lupin seemed surprised ("'You heard James?' said Lupin in a strange voice") when Harry claimed to have heard James' voice in his Dementor induced flashbacks. I don't know whether this is because James temporarily had laryngitis, or if they had a two-story house and James' body was found outside, or downstairs, or what (3), but Lupin did seem (to me) to be startled by that revelation. Why?

I postulate that it was Snape's voice that he heard. And Harry isn't able to recognise Snape's panicked and hurried, 10 years younger voice, versus SnapeTheDeathEater/ProfessorInAllHisSnarkiness voice.
Now, we know that Peter was at Godric's Hollow. We know this because he gave Voldemort his wand back. I'm fairly certain that when the Aurors arrived, they'd have taken Voldemort's wand if it had been there.

I also think Peter is why Voldemort would have spared Lily. Lily was to be PETER'S prize, NOT Snape's. (This theory is straight out of the HP4GU group on Yahoo.)

But why wouldn't Snape have recognized him then? Well, either Peter didn’t accompany Voldemort into the house, which is entirely probable (and stayed outside, for example), or they were cloaked and masked, which is also entirely probable.

Now, IF there was a paper upon which the address was written, presumably Voldemort was carrying it since Peter knew where it was to begin with. If Voldemort was holding it, then I'm thinking he probably dropped it when he dropped his wand. Given that I think he'd value his wand more, and all.

IF there was a paper, then Snape took it with him when he took Harry to Dumbledore.

Snape with james cloak? good theory but im slightly confused as to how snape would have got it in the first place

Well, thanks to a new update on JKR's website, we now know that Snape wasn't hiding under the invisibility cloak at Godric's Hollow.

So we're back where we started really...

Wow...well...what if we're analyzing this whole thing wrong? What if in fact we are over looking some minor characters with major parts?

My rather weird twisted theory is:

James knew there was something wrong. Lily didn't know and he wasn't going to tell her cuz she was pregnant and the news of voldemort being after them would make her get upset which wasn't good for the baby.
James trusted Sirius,Lupin and Peter. But I also think that he suspected them. Cuz here is why...

1. He could have given the cloak to any of the three for safe keeping but he didn't. He 'left' it to Dumbledore KNOWING that if by chance he failed and someone evil killed him and took the cloak, that person could use it for evil deeds.

2. His trust in his friends wasn't as strong once voldemort was rising in power. Think of power and it's corruption. James MUST have suspected that people were turning on him and his wife and so he trusted no one but dumbledore.

Okay so..feel free to shoot holes in my theory it's been a while since i read all the books :D

I did think Snape was under the cloak.. but it could be Sirius given the fact he knew they were dead fairly quickly, but no I disaggre with myself he wouldnt have just sat there he's not that rational, I tcould be Lupin..