Severus Snape

Wow! When searching the internet as I occasionally do! I came across a post from mugglenet of severus snape and a theory of spinners end. It took my breath away and I support Snape!! I know there is a severus snape thread already, though I thought this thread could be of the in depth theories trying to prove to all of you disbelievers out there that snape is actually good!

Anyway, it is quite long, but worth the read.
As taken from a thread at mugglenet.com

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The purpose of starting this thread is to take a close look at this theory and see if it fits with the events of the rest of the book in a reasonable way.

It’s assumed that Polyjuice produced the change.

It deserves its own thread because it is very focused, but completely alters the import of much of the rest of the book. Posting this theory in a more general thread will only annoy the majority of the people posting there, because (1) this theory is fundamental enough to undermine a high percentage of the arguments they can make, and (2) it’s ridiculus to try and deal with both the mainline angle and a fringe angle (ie: this one) at the same time. I know it annoyed me over on Dev of Sev, getting a fringe-theory take on a post I’d made -- a general thread can’t handle it reasonably.

Why ‘trustworthy’ Snape in the title? Two reasons: Firstly, it avoids overcomplicating the discussion, it pre-empts having to always make two arguments (which no-one will want to do, but will have to do if they care at all about completeness); Secondly, Dumbledore repeadedly insists it’s true, and I prefer to believe him. Lastly, Snape’s actions throughout the series actually demonstrate very clearly that he is 100%, rock solid trustworthy, to see this it’s only necessary to turn the ‘Harry filter’ off --- doubters can make their case here Dev of Sev HBP <http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=60356>, do research starting here Dev of Sev OOP (the posts tend to be brilliant and researched, it’s great reading).

---- ---- what you may not need to know: why I’m here ---- ----
After reading several thousand posts over on Dev of Sev HBP Dev of Sev HBP (and Dev of Sev OOP versions) it became clear that Snape is Dumbledore’s good guy --- I went there looking for info-support of a sadistic streak and instead discovered that I had no idea about the character at all. Just turn the ‘Harry filter’ off.

This confidence makes Snape’s AK look ridiculous, unless one can find a reason that would justify the Snape characters actually following through on such a thing. (want to see? start here: Reason Search) I came up with a few acceptable possibilities (eg: ‘Dumbledore is already dying’, ‘save Snape from the UV’) , but eliminated them all to my own satisfaction (ie: they are not true in light of canon support). So here was a character doing something he would never do (IMHO). On top of that was Dumbledore’s asking him to ‘break his soul’, to help him commit suicide --- that’s also ridiculous (as I said I eliminated all the reasons I considered acceptable).

Having expended all the ability at my disposal, and having still utterly failed to provide a reasonable fit for the parts, the only alternative is to explore other theories --- go to the fringe a bit. To paraphrase, if the simplest explanation doesn’t fit, then start to explore others.

I believe this is a reasonable theory (I saw several choices, but this one looks most attractive).
And it sounds like fun to me.

Also, it is then not too difficult to find a scenario where Snape did not kill Dumbledore, and Dumbledore didn’t ask Snape to break his soul and kill him.
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----

I’m commited to systematically working my way through this theory with it’s originator, Paintball. Here’s his theory =>
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Originally Posted by Paintball
AN INTELLIGENT MAN’S MISTAKES ARE BIG ONE’S

Dumbledore admitted his biggest weakness is when he makes a mistake it is a big mistake. Most people think this admission was foreshadowing his being wrong about trusting Snape. This may be the case, but what if he had already made a major mistake, he knew it, and it was a real big mistake? Not a mistake of emotion, but a mental mistake. One caused by his intelligence and not his emotions. The mistake was taking the unbreakable vow. What has caused me to come to this conclusion?
(1) To begin with, I cannot picture any Slytherin taking the unbreakable vow. It is so out of character for a Slytherin. Now a Gryffindor, not out of character at all. In addition it makes no sense for Snape to take the vow. If he was loyal to Voldemort to agree to give up his post to save Draco’s life would not receive favor with Voldemort. I read all the post on why a Dumbledore loyal Snape would take the vow, and they don’t make sense to me. Why would anyone take the vow? To prove their loyalty. This is the reason JKR wants her readers to assume as Snape’s reason. But the only person to whom Snape needed to prove his loyalty was Voldemort, not Bella. To ease a person’s suffering? I submit this is a reason to take the vow, but one that would be out of character for Snape, but not Dumbledore.
(2) Dumbledore is very gracious, and seems to feel that offering refreshments to a guest is always the polite thing to do. Snape offered Narcissa and Bellatrix wine when they arrived at his house unannounced. In fact, Snape’s politeness toward the sisters is so out of character. When they arrive at the door and ask to speak to him, he replies “But of course.” Not, “About what?” His amusing use of the English language is so Dumbledore like. Example: “Narcissa, I think we ought to hear what Bellatrix is bursting to say; it will save tedious interruptions.” In rereading Chapter 2 the adjectives used to describe Snape’s tone and demeanor is so unlike Snape and so like Dumbledore. The ways Bella’s questions are turned back on Bella are so Dumbledore like.
(3) When Dumbledore first consented to take the unbreakable vow what did he agree to do? “Would you look after him, see he comes to no Harm?” Dumbledore’s view at taking this vow would be that he would do everything is his power to convince him to come over to the good side and to protect him from Voldemort. His plan when told of Draco’s orders was to save Draco by getting him to agree to let the order fake his death like he offered to do on the tower. Why didn’t he bring Draco into his office and offer this alternative sooner. Draco was ready for such an offer at the time of the bathroom scene. His intelligence told him it was safe to take this vow. This is what he intended to do anyway. But, the last vow was added and this surprised him. “And, should it prove necessary….if it seems Draco will fail, will you carry out the deed that the dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?” What was going through his mind, before he made the mistake of saying “yes?” Did he think, it will never be necessary? Notice how the sentence started with “If necessary”, but then the sentence was started over again. Imagine how Dumbledore’s heart sank when he reviewed his actions in the penseive. Did he think, I would rather die then a young child like Draco? I don’t know what he was thinking, but his logic caused him to make the biggest mistake we have seen in the series.
(4) Why was Dumbledore at Snape’s house under the Polyjuice portion? This is the easy question to answer. For years Dumbledore has been trying to interview everyone who had any contact with Voldemort to confirm his suspicion of the use by Voldemort of Horcruxes and to determine how many he made and what they were. He had been doing this without telling anyone what he was doing, not even Snape. If possible, he would not have let the possibility of interviewing Wormtail go past. Possibly, Dumbledore made one of Snape’s assignments to arrange the meeting. The interview was unfortunately interrupted by Narcissa and Bellatrix. What did he confirm from this interview? “After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux.” Harry never told Dumbledore of the contents of his dream at the beginning of GOF. He told Sirius that his scar hurt and Sirius told Dumbledore, but not that Voldemort had killed the old man. Dumbledore knew of the death from reading the Muggle newspapers, but didn’t know for sure that Voldemort had committed the murder. He didn’t offer Harry proof of a memory that would confirm this theory like he did the others. Why? Because the proof to support this theory would have given too much away about the end of the series.
(5) Dumbledore set up the appointment to take Harry to the Burrow at 11:00PM. The guidelines from the ministry had suggested that all travel be concluded by night. This makes perfect sense. I can’t picture Dumbledore making this trip at night, unless a previous appointment had to be kept prior to his picking up Harry. I see no reason why the visit on Slughorn could not have been made in the daylight.
(6) Dumbledore knew Draco was trying to kill him. Without the second part of the unbreakable vow he could have brought Draco into his office and asked him:” Is there anything you want to tell me?” We have seen him do this many times. He then would have protected him as he offered to do on the tower. He must have felt horrible that he could have prevented the harm to Ron and Katie, by stopping Draco. I am certain that right up to the end Dumbledore was trying to figure out a way around the second part of the unbreakable vow.
(7) JKR’s style of writing. She has treated the Harry Potter books as much Mystery as fantasy. In her last interview she confirmed she might be interested in writing mystery books after she completes book 7. It would be so unlike her to have the obvious turn out to be the truth. She has stated that she views book 6 and book 7 has really one book, which means the surprise twist we so expect from her has not yet occurred.
This is just my guess on one part of HBP. I am a big reader of mystery novels and one of the games I play is trying to guess the twist before it comes. I admit I have not been able to guess any of JKR’s prior twist before they come. If I had continued to read HBP and book 7 as one book, I would not have guessed the outcome I am now guessing, It took several readings of HBP to come up with this theory. I would never read the first half of a mystery several times before reading the second half. I think JKR is trying to do something that no other mystery writer has ever done, create a twist that makes sense with a gap of over two years between the first half and second half of a book with every reader trying to guess her twist. Of course her twist could be that the obvious was the answer.

I would like to respond to a couple of points to get started (rather than trying to do them all at once).

Might as well start out with what Dumbledore actually said about himself, because if it is a hint, then it’s supports the idea that an alternative exists =>
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“But do you think you’re right?” said Harry.
“Naturally I do, but as I have already proven to you, I make mistakes like the next man. In fact, being – forgive me – rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger.” (Dumbledore) (HBP,ch10,p197Am)

I agree with Paintball that (1) this is indeed a hint about something to the reader, and (2) it’s likely something that’s already happened. Notice, Dumbledore actually uses the word ‘huger’ ! It’s not just a ‘big’ mistake he’s talking about, it’s ‘huge’ !!


I also agree with point #2, that it’s not hard to imagine that it really is Dumbledore speaking at Spinner’s End (HBP,ch2). In fact it’s a lot of fun to read it that way – a good bit of humor!

I don’t agree that the politeness is out of character for Snape, though. It’s just not supportable. The the few passages available in the texts with Snape interacting socially with peers actually suggest the opposite. And ‘turning Bella’s questions back on her’ is also very Snape-like, if you ask me. But for the overall argument I don’t think it matters.

On the other hand, I do indeed think it may be out of character for Snape to explain himself to anyone at all. So it’s odd that he would explain himself to Bella. As you mention in point #1, the only person Snape needs to prove his loyalty to is Voldemort.


Motive is a critical consideration, so I like the inclusion of point #4 – Dumbledore was there to interview Wormtail concerning underlying things that Snape knew nothing about (ie: Horcruxes). I think your reasoning is good – straightforward. Let me contribute=>
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Originally Posted by (HBP,ch23,p506Am)
“I wonder what you will say when I confess that I have been curious for a while about the behavior of the snake, Nagini?” ..(snip)..

“After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux.”

It’s a great point you make that there is little other way Dumbledore could have learned of Voldemort’s killing of Frank Bryce and its connection to Nagini, except from a Wormtail interview. Nice catch Paintball.

An additional support that Dumbledore didn’t hear it from Harry: Harry, in his dream (GoF,ch1), sees Voldemort kill Frank, not that Nagini killed Frank. So Dumbledore has heard something different from what Harry saw. So Harry also couldn’t have told his dream to Dumbledore at some later time (and a time that is not reported in the books). On the other hand, Wormtail was standing right there in the room with Voldemort when it happened, after all, so if the info came to Dumbledore from Wormtail, then why didn’t Wormtail get it right? (ie: Dumbledore tells Harry that Nagini was used to kill Frank) Unknown.

Also in support of Dumbledore’s motive to be at Spinner’s End, there’s the second line quoted above, he says straight out that he’s ‘been curious for a while’ about Nagini. It’s information that he has considered important. And Dumbledore could have coaxed the additional details (mentioned a few lines further on) of Nagini’s behavior out of Wormtail as well (although Snape could know details about Nagini).

But I agree that your own argument is very reasonable as to where his information came from – it came from Wormtail at Spinner’s End. On the whole it fits very well.


On point #3 --- why should Dumbledore take the vow? I think it’s because Snape is supposed to be Narcissa’s husband’s friend (ie: a friend of Lucius), and he believes Snape would want to protect Draco, his friend’s son (just as Dumbledore does), so why not take a vow to help and protect him? No good reason not to. However, then comes the third part of the vow, why would Dumbledore agree to the third part?=>

...continued in next post....

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Quote:
Originally Posted by (HBP,ch2,p36Am)
“And, should it prove necessary . . . if it seems Draco will fail . . .” whispered Narcissa (Snape’s hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away), “will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?”

You may be right, he may have thought he had some ‘rather cleverer’ interpretation of the what was going down, a ‘loophole’ as I’ve seen it mentioned elsewhere.

One other possibility is that taking the vow at all was the ‘rather cleverer’ thing that Dumbledore did. Agreeing to the third part because if he does not, then his friend Severus Snape’s life would be in jeopardy! I mean, there ‘Snape’ supposedly is finally demonstrating his ultimate loyalty to the Death Eaters, and at the critical moment he backs out!? Dumbledore screwed up, and rather than make his friend pay for his mistake, he sacrifices himself. One complaint on this score is that Dumbledore could just allow Snape’s conver to be blown, after all Dumbledore is extremely valuable, more so than Snapes ability to spy, then Snape could do other things under Dumbledore’s protection.

In any case he took the vow and made a ‘correspondingly huger’ mistake. I agree with you, I think it is reasonable under the circumstances, whatever the final reason.


So far so good . . .

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okay, as some may know i spend a lot of time trowling through the hundreds of theories on websites such as Mugglenet, Leaky, even imdb and this morning was no different. Whilst reading through the message boards on imdb for HBP i came across a theory which not only made me go wow, but also think that perhaps the author has a very good point. That is why i am going to post the theory here, make no mistakes this is not my theory it is by swan-swan from imdb.com:


" All right, I think I have it all organized...this is going to be kept quick and simple.

Dumbledore had a plan on the night that he died. The night they went Horcrux-hunting. The end result was what happened, perhaps exactly, perhaps with a slight difference. My current guess at what it was....

Well, thanks to vick3ie finding this a long time ago, I know when it began...when Harry told Dumbledore about Malfoy finishing something. Dumbledore knew, then, that Malfoy had succeeded in his plan, and that tonight would be the night that he tried to kill him. What he was going to do, he didn't know--if he was going to use some new spell he had learned, bring in some Death Eater backup, or rev up the fully armored MagiTank 3000 and blast his office to smithereens...but he figured that whatever it was, the plan was going to lead into a stand-off between the two of them, wand-to-wand (which rules out the last one, but I was being silly). Thus, he set the plan into motion. He had had it prepared, and now it was time to alert those he needed to perform their duties.

So he dismissed Harry, telling him to go and fetch his Invisibility Cloak--even though he knew that Harry had it with him, as he always did during that year. But he knew that Harry would take the opportunity to leave in order to bid his friends farewell and do all of that important stuff.

The moment he was gone, he acted. He sent out two Patronuses...one to Severus Snape, the other one to his own brother, Aberforth Dumbledore. He could have even just told Snape via some other method, personal talk or Floo Powder or whatever else, and then had Snape send the message to Aberforth. Whatever the method, both of them got it and prepared.

Thus, when Dumbledore met Harry in the entrance hall several minutes later, the plan was ready to go. He and Harry left, strolling all of the way down to Hogsmeade....instead of Disapparating outside of the gates where the Death Eaters would later do so. Perhaps it was to make sure that whatever accomplice Draco had in Hogsmeade (who was no doubt already considered by him, though her identity was not yet fully known) saw them going...perhaps it was to check and make sure that Aberforth had received the message. Whatever it was, they went off together.

Then the Horcrux hunt went on; in the meantime, Aberforth and Snape assumed their positions. Snape, you will notice, was in his office, where Dumbledore knew he would be (so no excuses about him hiding there, please, Dumbledore knew where he was), instead of patrolling the corridors with the other members of the Order.

Then, Dumbledore returned, weakened and possibly dying. Knowing that he had little time one way or another, he said that he had to see Severus--either to be cured of the potion or killed to fulfill the Vow, he wanted him. Odds are leaning toward the latter...he had to get Draco out of there safely. But there may have been something he wanted Snape and Harry to discuss, or something he had to tell him....we can't know until later. But whatever his reason, he was immediately made aware that Draco had already taken action and was not waiting for him to return to do his job...the Dark Mark was on the tower.

Thus, he ordered up some brooms, told Harry to stay hidden, and then swooped off to the tower. The area that was quite obviously a trap--instead of using the gates, a window, or any tower, he went right up to the Dark Mark. He didn't even summon Fawkes, tell Harry to remain behind, and have Fawkes take him back to somewhere safe in the school. He flew up quite obviously. On his way up, he removed some of the enchantments protecting the castle--and in the process, allowed Aberforth to open the gates below. Dumbledore landed on the tower, making sure that Harry was still invisible...but there were no Death Eaters waiting for them there. So he sent Harry down to get Snape, invisible. He needed Snape to be told about this, so that he could get up here--otherwise, there was no way for him to know.

But before Harry could go downstairs, Draco showed up. Ordering Harry to one side, Dumbledore froze him in place so that he could not interfere. Harry would be freed when he died, or when he released him to help with Draco....but he couldn't act before then. Thus, he allowed himself to be disarmed. Only in that manner could he gain Draco's full trust. He was placing everything on the belief that Draco wasn't a killer--a belief that was proven correct by Draco and Rowling. With that bold move, he stood there and confronted Draco. He outlined the terms, describing everything that he could do for Draco, everything the Order could do for him and his mother. Draco considered...and finally accepted.

All of this served another purpose, too: Dumbledore had found the perfect way to reveal the truth about Draco to Harry without any denial or interruption. The same was true of the plan, and how he had known...

But then the plan took a small twist. The four Death Eaters burst onto the tower, and the plan was suddenly in jeopardy. Dumbledore could not reveal Harry and send him to get Snape, nor could he take Draco now....but he maintained his strength, and hoped that Draco would not kill him still....yet all may have fallen into ruin....

Had it not been for the fortunate fact that Snape had been alerted already by Flitwick. He arrived on top of the tower, knowing exactly what was happening. He arrived, surveyed the scene, took in the facts...Dumbledore looked like he was dying, Draco was not going to do the deed, and there were four other Death Eaters there, at least one of which had their wand pointing at Dumbledore. And then Dumbledore spoke....he said Severus's name, and Snape stepped forward at his call. He looked at Dumbledore, afraid of what he had to do, but knowing what he had to do...he hated himself, he was revolted by what he was being asked to do...but he did it anyway.

He killed Dumbledore.

Not a perfect curse. Instead of killing him and dropping him to the ground, it threw him backwards, over the tower. Enough of a distraction, anyway. The deed was done, but now was not the time to grieve--he had his orders. Thus, he quickly grabbed Draco and took him down, keeping him safe as per his orders from Dumbledore and Narcissa. He ran downstairs, leading the Death Eaters down. Hurrying through the battle, he made sure to keep Draco safe...but the other Death Eaters stopped to fight the Order. Taking the initiative, he called the Death Eaters off. He drew them off, took them downstairs, away from the battle. He ran all the way to the front gates, as planned, not fighting or confronting anyone--just getting them out of there alive.

He reached the grounds and ran forward...and there, the gates were open. Opened by Aberforth and Albus before. Ready to let them go. And so they charged on; behind them, a Death Eater set fire to Hagrid's hut, but Snape had to get Draco out safely first, then he could get the Death Eaters off....

But suddenly, a jet of light shot past his head, and he realized that the mission had almost failed. Someone was behind them...the gates were too far to get away...he had to stand and hold them off, because he could. So he ordered Draco to run, and turned to face the attacker and get the Death Eaters out. And he found himself facing Harry.

Meanwhile, Draco ran for the gates, almost panicking now, as he didn't have any way of leaving...he couldn't Apparate. But as soon as he came out of the gates, Aberforth appeared--or didn't. He may have been invisible, wearing a cloak or donned with a Disillusionment Charm--he may have even Summoned Harry's Invisibility Cloak from the top of the tower. Whatever it was, he was waiting for Draco. He took him, and Disapparated to Grimmauld Place after a hasty explanation to Draco. Once there, he either passed him a pre-made note from his brother or told him himself.

Snape, meanwhile, called the other Death Eaters off. In the meantime, he faced Harry, jeering him, trying not to show his pain. He focused himself on his hatred of Harry...but when Harry was attacked by another Death Eater, he intervened on Harry's behalf to save him, using the excuse that the Dark Lord wanted him (something that may have been common knowledge among the Death Eaters). Then he stood against Harry for a moment longer, making sure that all of the Death Eaters were gone...and then Harry began using his own spells against him. Indignant and enraged at this, he disarmed Harry, feeling hatred for himself and Harry at the same time....and then Harry let him know in no uncertain terms that he had witnessed Dumbledore's death. In the same breath, he had also accused him of cowardice--something Snape had been trying to deny furiously since the moment he struck Dumbledore down.

This wasn't something Snape had known would be in the plan, and thus he went completely berserk. If the Order knew that he had done it before he could explain the whole plan, how could he be trusted? He struck out at Harry, then fled into the night as Buckbeak attacked.

From there, I have only two guesses as to where he Disapparated. He either returned to Voldemort's side to resume his role of spy and note that Draco had not made it....or else he went to the Malfoy's manor to grab Narcissa and return to Grimmauld Place with her. Thus Voldemort would be denied of his prey in one fell swoop. If he didn't go there, though, it is possible that Moody or Kingsley or any other member of the Order went there....Dumbledore had said himself that he could send members of the Order to her on that night. Just because he died doesn't mean that they couldn't go....

And thus, Malfoy family rescued and switching sides, Snape is free of worry about Vows, students saved, Voldemort's evil plan foiled, good triumphs once again and Harry is all set to take out the bad guy. "


ALthough this post was generally mocked on imdb, i found it intriguing for the simple fact that is throws open a whole new direction for what will happen in book 7, plus i think Elfie will be pleased to know there is a good theory for Snape being Good (LONG LIVE SNAPEYPOO!). Anyway, i want to know what you all think, could it have been possible for Dumbledore to have set a plan in motion whilst Harry was in his common room giving orders to his friends? Do you think that the hate and repulshin(sp?) etched on Snapes face was because of his own feelings towards the task at hand or because he just simply hated Dumbledore and is actually a bad bad man (ELfie do not kill me i lobe you!).

Although i am all for the Snapeypoo being good theory i have stumbled across something which makes me think perhaps Dumbly didnt know about the U.V. But then something solid points to Snape being a good guy, here read:

In the tower, Draco and Dumbly are talking, (UK edition page 549) Draco tells Dumbly that Snape wasnt doing his orders, he had promised Narcissa, which is when Dumbly cuts him off, saying "Of course that is what he would tell you, Draco, but -" now it made me think did Snape actually tell Dumbly about U.V?

But then we go further along the book and as Snape is running for his life (who wouldnt when you have Harry Potter the boy who escaped Voldielocks how many times?I'd be scared if Harry was chasing me with his wand!) Harry attacks him, he turns to fight, but during this 'fight' Snape is still giving Harry help, guidance and knowledge - he told Harry he needs to keep his mouth shut and think or sumit along those lines. If Snape was really bad would he still be trying to help Harry? Me thinks not. LONG LIVE SNAPEYPOO!!!

Anyway what do you lot think?

oh btw if anyone notices a M missing from my words, tell me, i think my keyboard hates the M and well, ive looked over this twice and i think i have them all in there but still...!

I have seen a few snape related topics here but not one that simply focuses on the thoughts of his character and actions so i thought i would open one - I hope this is alright?

I'll start the ball rolling by talking of spinners end, a subject which seems to be popping up all over the place at the moment.

Why does Rowling talk about Snape so openly while we had trouble knowing anything about the real plans of the enemies before?! Be it Pettigrew, Lucius, the Horcruxes, Kreacher, Crouch Snr&Jnr, Sirius while an escapee, Voldemort, Quirell, the Diary Horcrux, the Order business, Albus... whoever it was, Rowling was never so blunt before! Why would she do that now? Why unveil all the mysteries right away?! Why have Snape be the traitor and why are we to know why he is right in chapter 2?! If I weren't a Snape fan, I would know from the start that Snape was going to betray everyone in the end, the suspense would somehow be dampened because I would know who was going to make everything bad in the end for the heroes. This sounds very 'unRowling' to me even though she said: Book 6 is not about more mysteries, it's about answers. But why would she kill the suspense this way? I mean, you ought to have been a real Hufflepuff is after reading the second chapter you didn't think: "Oh no, Snape is a bad guy. I hope they catch him!".

Rowling needed us to worry and be highly suspicious about Snape from the start of Book6 . Why not simply have Narcissa visit and do the Unbreakable Vow whenever there was a third witness? After all, Narcissa didn't plan on her sister coming because she told her to go back and leave her alone. She didn't know Wormtail would be there, so she intended Snape to swear to the UVow at a later appointment. So why bring Bellatrix along and have Snape expose all his well planned actions proving that he is still a Death Eater and never truly turned coat?!

Yes, she kept the surprise of us finding out Snape was the Half-Blood Prince, but then again, wasn't she quite blunt in his exposure of his evil plans in this chapter?! That sounds fishy! What's the best hiding technique? Expose the facts so no one will ever notice what's truly going on in the background.

Snape never offers information about his secret activities for the Light. Snape keeps his secrets to himself, both bad and good! And that is why I am not convinced when I hear Snape spill his inner most secrets and strategies to Bellatrix and Narcissa in the second chapter of Book 6. If we were to believe Snape worked for the good side in order to stun everyone when he finally kills Dumbledore, wouldn't Rowling focus on his good secret actions instead of feeding us his bad spying activities from the start? I think so, very strongly so!

I have just been reading a passage from whysnape.com which I will outline below. It has some very interesting points about snape being given the DADA job:

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If Snape told the truth to Bella, that Dumbledore feared a relapse in the past teaching years of Snape, then Dumbledore thinks that Snape's interest in the Dart Arts is somewhat equivalent to any dependency we know of. For example, we all know that the best way for an ex-alcoholic to keep going on is to never touch a glass or bottle of alcohol ever again. We know that an ex-smoker should not smoke a cigarette ever again. We know humans are frail when it comes to such dependencies and that the best remedy if not the only one is to not touch it anymore. But is Dumbledore so worried about Snape that he won't let him teach what he loves best? After all, who would be better to teach how to defend yourself from the Dark Arts than someone who has been through it before? We know it takes an ex-alcoholic to help another because people simply can't understand the drive and the attraction of alcohol as well as an ex-drinker. Therefore, I have always had my doubts about the real reasons or the whole truth of Snape never getting the DADA class. But I always thought it had to be BIG and have many consequences on the plot or Rowling wouldn't have mentioned it from the first book and on. Giving him the job now for the reason Snape just told Bellatrix (and apparently Voldemort) doesn't make any sense! Why? Because now that the Dark Lord has risen again, it is even more dangerous for Snape to succumb to the Dark Arts!! It's as simple as that! When you have an ex-alcoholic under your roof and that you kept him 15 years without being able to teach his favourite subject, Defense Against Alcohols and Drugs, because you thought he would relapse that makes sense. What doesn't is that in your employee's 16th year of service, you suddenly ask him to teach DAAD BUT you also know your teacher's 'old pals' are in town and have reopened a liquor store downtown where beer, wine and spirit alcohols flow freely from their store public fountain!! That would be insane! Therefore, my point of view is that the reason why Snape never got the job was not because Dumbledore feared a relapse. If Dumbledore really feared a relapse, then he wouldn't have given the job to Snape that year because Snape was the Order's best spy! If you fear your spy will turn on you, you'll make sure he is monitored very closely. Did you see anyone monitoring Snape closely? I didn't. And you don't tempt your spy either by putting him in the kingdom of the Dark Arts!

Some other things to consider in the argument that snape IS good, again from whysnape.com though it mirrors my own thoughts exactly

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Veritaserum: yes, Dumbledore used it without any qualms on Barty Crouch Jr so he would use it on Snape if he needed to. Dumbledore would have asked Snape what he knew, what he didn't know, what he was ready to do to make it up to the Light and bring down Voldemort, etc. But Veritaserum is good only for the present, you would have to retest someone each year to make sure they weren't hiding something.
Unbreakable Vow: yes, I love this theory because it's perfect! No loopholes with this one: you do what you promised to or you die. That's it that's all! Dumbledore would make Snape swear he would do anything to bring down the Dark Lord, that he would protect the Order of the Phoenix, that he didn't want to be a Death Eater thereof and that would prove that he was genuinely guilty.

Snape and Harry

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Revealing information to Harry (or trusting Harry with the truth): Dumbledore needs Harry to trust him but Harry has something against Snape that he cannot yet overcome emotionally. This may explain why Dumbledore would hesitate to share such secret information, one piece of info that could mean Snape's death as well, because Harry would surely not be able to keep it for himself. Harry usually only hides from Ron and Hermione what he's ashamed of, but something like that was bound to be retold by Harry. It was because he is biased about Snape as a spy, as much as Snape is biased about Harry as a student. But Snape always saved Harry in the past even though he dislikes him as a student, he does the right thing. Is Harry mature enough to do the right thing even though it appears to be a thorn in your side at first? I don't think so and if Dumbledore hesitated because he wasn't sure if he should tell Harry or not, I say he did the right thing.

continuing on second post due to length

What if Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore? What was or were the vows?

Snape promised to do all that Dumbledore bade him to ? even kill him?
Snape promised to protect Hogwarts and people against evil ?
Snape promised that he was repentant for his actions as a Death Eater ?

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Dumbledore had known all year that they had to prepare in case Voldemort succeeded in coming back to life, ever since he first reappeared in Book 1 in fact. Dumbledore is the incarnation of Good in the series, he would therefore plan way in advance when he saw that evil was lurking. I'm sure he made plans with Snape way before Voldemort came back to life because Dumbledore likes to be well prepared, just as with the Philosopher's Stone.

Yes, and this is possibly when the unbreakable vow or promise was made!

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Dumbledore trusts Snape completely: with his life and those of others, with Order information which he didn't even reveal to Harry until Year 6, with Hogwarts, with the wizarding world, with the Good side, with everything. Dumbledore has put the balance of the whole wizarding world of the British Isles on Snape's shoulders. And you think that was a miscalculation? A foolish decision? To me, it is impossible that Dumbledore could hand the lives of an entire community into Snape's hands unless he had been dead sure he was a good guy. In the Muggle world, you can't do that because there are no ways to really know if someone will betray you. But thanks to magic everything is possible!

There is another point which is essential to make clearer as well: the DADA job. Why did Snape only get it in his last year if evidence that Dumbledore trusted him completely was given?!

the position truly is jinxed and that Dumbledore doesn't want to risk Snape teaching it in case he would also be unable to teach it anymore or die because of the jinx.

There is so much more and all credit goes to whysnape.com

I'll come back with more later

ooh this is interesting to read. Im not sure whether i believe snape is good or not but these points are very persuasive (is that the word?)

I read this over at www.leakylounge.com

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Snape told Voldemort about the Prophecy, right after it is delivered. This happens in 1980, shortly before the death of the Potters, according to HPL. If this is indeed true (it is based on info from all of the books), Snape would most likely have known if Sirius was working for Voldemort. It is possible that this is not the case, if either one of their identities as a Death Eater was hidden. However, Sirius states that Wormtail is not very popular in Azkaban, as other Death Eaters believe that he sold out to escape Azkaban himself, leading me to believe that most Death Eaters were aware of who was working for Voldemort during his first rise to power.

This means that Snape is intentionally leading a man that he has always known is innocent to the Dementors. Additionally, even though Sirius, Harry, and the others are willing to bring Wormtail to justice, Snape is so insistent on implicating Sirius that he ignores their pleas. Is this because of the old grudge? Or is it because he knew Wormtail was involved with Voldemort all along, and is at this time protecting a fellow Death Eater from being implicated? If this is the case, this section is suggesting very strongly that at least up until this point, Snape has been committed to Voldemort's cause, casting serious doubt on whether he has been faithful to Dumbledore, and later, to the Order of the Phoenix.

Could this be one part that shows that snape is actually evil?

what i really cant wait to find out is what did snape say or do to make dumbledore trust him so much

ok...i only read the first article but i think i'm nearly convinced!! maybe when i have time i'll read the others and tell you what i think ^^

I hated him then I liked him then I hated him again and now Im really not sure.

I have a theory that he is going to be one of the ones who dies, though I am not completely sure whether he will be redeemed or not. I simply can not make up my mind with him. He is such a complex character and I have read so many different theorys concerning him (a lot on this site even) though each one I read leaves me more and more lost in thought

I think he will die too. I hope he redeems himself but I'm not so sure, the last book really got me to oppose him..

I have read a few theories of Elfies here on the site (which reminds me I am surprised she hasnt posted here more as she seems obsessed with snape lol) and the last confrontation between snape and harry seems to come up a lot. Elfie and a lot of people seem to think that there is something there that proves snape is really on the side of good though Im not sure

I don't know, he seemed evil to me though I think some people are in denial. The theorys that are supposed to make him look good just dont make sense to me.

Im not totally sure about Snape but I think that he isnt all evil

What convinced you?

My favorite character of them all. So complex. So mysterious. Is he bad? Is he good?

I for one believe he is good. He could have done away with Harry so many times, but never did. Dumbledore trusted him, and there had to be a reason for it, a huge one!

I love to read about him and I look forward to his part in the last book when the truth will fianlly come out and he will be free to be who he really is.....A HERO!

I dont know. I think he's evil though. Its just me, but he doesnt seem the kind to come back.. I just dont know with him. the question though is will the Order let him back in

If he was pure evil he wouldnt act like he does. I have read so many theories on him, a lot on this site as well (which reminds me - I really should reply to them :D ) though I am still stuck in a rut over Snape.

I dont think he is pure evil though I dont think he is pure good either. I think what makes snape one of the most talked about characters in HP is his extreme complexity. There is more to Snape than meets the eye.

I think everyone knows that. It all depends on how you intereprt the story and the part Snape has in it. If you read it and beleive it you'll think he's evil, but i agree, not pure evil, and if you over analyze it you'll think he's good. It also depends on what you think went on at Spinner's End

I completly agree Elfie. There was a reason it all happened!!

Maybe Snape is good-and you can all crucio me later if he is- but I believe that there's a chance he is bad.

Confusion and bitterness- two defined themes that make up this character. I can see how people can come to the assumption that he is 'good' however, the facts are there. HE killed Dumbledore. HE is a Death Eater and HE is trapped in a situation of twisted loyalty.

Then again, he may not truly be loyal to either side at all and more or less on his own side.

If he was truly on Voldemort's side then why did he not kill Harry in the many chances he got when Harry was at Hogwarts? Voldemort would have rewarded him greatly for doing Harry in.
Voldemort knew in the prophecy that Harry had to die in order for him to live a proper excistance

I love fated's post! It was brilliant! I am truely convinced he killed Dumbledore with out telling him about the unbreakable vow. And you have to admit, he fled, he killed Dumbledore! If he was good, why didnt he just die! It doesnt make sense, wither way he cant be completly good!

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Even if Snape and Dumbledore had a convoluted plot to kill him because Snape is really good and blah blah...Snape is still a bad man!

Look at all the things he's done in the past: picking on Neville because he's not as bright as the other kids, picking on Harry because of who his Father is, generally showing hatred towards Gryffindor because of house prejudices, he was a Death Eater at one point even if he did turn spy for the Order.

There's a difference between being on the good side and being a good person, and I think this is something people forget.

Whats ironic is that Sirius pointed that out when talking to Harry about another person (whose name i cannot remember right now) I think that he's done to much to be welcomed back into the fold as a Order member and i dont think he should be trusted

And Dumbledore trusted Snape...Why? There had to be a very great and truthful reason for this.
I think that Snape made an unbreakable vow with Dumbledore that he would protect Harry at all costs. He felt guilty about telling Voldemort part of the prophecy and to repent he pledged his allegiance to Dumbledore to protect Harry.

If that is not the reason DD trusts Snape then there is something just as good as that.

I thought DD trusted Snape bcuz of feeling regret after he sold Lily over to Voldy, (notice how I left out James) didn't he like her in school or somehting? Thats what I though it was.

idk, I think the vow was to be a apy and sort of like Kreacher, not tell the plans of the Order

Why didn't Snape get rid of Harry? That's a good question and I think I have a theory on the answer. Voldemort wanted to be the one to get rid of Harry. He would not want Snape to take that glory from him.

Snape may have made an unbreakable vow with james potter- in the past. Also consider that he saved snape's life and snape OWES james.

Snape didn't get rid of Harry because the prophecy states that only Voldemort can do it. So by not killing/harming Harry Snape was following Voldie's orders like the good little Death Eater he is

Snape had to be awful to Harry and his friends. If he acted nice to them Draco would see it. Draco is a blabbermouth and would go run and tell Daddy that Snape was nice to Harry.

That would blow Snape's cover as a deatheater. Dumbledore wanted Snape to keep his status with the deatheaters to stay in constant knowledge of Voldemort's plans. If he wasn't awful to Harry, his cover would have blown when Harry was at his 1st year at school. Then Snape would be no good to Dumbledore, because Voldemort would have killed him.

And yes, Snape and Dumbledore made a vow somewhere just before book 6 started. Nothing else makes sense.

Why did Snape not kill Harry after he killed Dumbledore? He didn't because it was all part of He and Dumbledore's plan. Snape was giving Harry advice on how to protect himself. Why would Snape do that for an enemy!!

Snape is not like kreacher! :D

I think that their argument was about the unbreakable vow and it has to be more than just order work. I think that it certainly had something to do with killing Dumbledore.

Lets take a look at that night on the tower. Many people believe that Dumbledore was pleading for his life. Is Dumbledore the type of person who would plead for his life? No!

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"Death is just another great adventure" Dumbledore Quote

Dumbledore, in my opinion, was pleading with severus to kill him and keep his vow. Remember that both these wizards are experts in occulmancy/legitimacy as well, showing that not all their communication would have been voiced

Even if he were begging Snape to kill him, IF Snape were the 'good guy' he wouldn't have. You don't just kill someone cuz they beg for it if you are the good guy. You come up with alternative methods of dealing with the situations.

I believe that Snape killing Dumbledore was partly out of desperation to keep Voldemort off Draco while at the same time force Hogwarts to go on the alert for the upcoming war approaching.

Amen on Elfie's last post!!
Whhoooo
I am really pumped up now!!

Yes Elfie. Dumbledore would never plead for his life. Not from Snape and not from anyone else either.

So OK, maybe Snape can't kill Harry and it has to be Voldemort. Then why didn't Snape take Harry that night, or any night and deliver him to him?? Snape is an extremly powerful wizard. He was with Harry alone. He could have overpowered him easily...But alas, he did NOT! Because he has no intentions on letting Harry be killed!

I dont agree! I think it was becasue Voldy gave him orders not to kill him, as you have heard the DE's say many times 'he is the Dark Lord's'

Snape wasn't doing it for the greater good cuz he had planned to get rid of Dumbledore all along. He planned to do it to strengthen Voldemort's side and signal the start of the Wizard war. Snape might have respected Dumbledore to a point but his crave of power, or being more powerful took over that genuine feeling.

Snape killed Dumbledore as a sign of showing not only his loyalty to the Dark Lord but to intimidate everyone who opposed him.

But why did he not deliver Harry to Voldemort that night?? Harry was upset and the dark lord could have killed him easily.

It's because Snape does not want Harry dead. Snape wants Voldemort to die so everyone can live again

I think with HBP when the bit with Snape killing Voldemort happened, the true Snape came out. He was suspicious from the start, and his persona has always been nothing to applaud. How he has given Harry a hard time over the years, and no one noticed that he despises Harry for being Jame's son? Snape's got underlying issues that go waaaaaaaay back to the time when James and the Marauders used to tease him and pick on him. That has dwelled in him for a long time. Then the rise of the Dark Lord, the Death Eaters and a place for Snape to feel he belonged. Who would want to be on the side of your 'school enemies' the ones who taunt and hurt you all the time when you could be on the opposing side, and rise to power under the rule of a great, powerful leader.

Once again this deals with the theme of bitterness- Bitterness that Snape holds on to and it is why that 1. he not only agreed to be a Death Eater but a spy for voldemort as well 2. He wants nothing to do with Harry other than make him miserable and suffer just like he did when Harry's father went to the school.

This man has been through heck and over the years he's let alll the anger and bitterness dwell in him and he's finally let it out by killing Dumbledore.

(sorry if I took this in another direction, I get passionate in debates :D )

(heh yeah i got my thoughts crossed :D )

Yes, but bitterness CAN lead to one being evil and that's what happened in Snape's case. He's powerful, bitter, hates Harry and wants to stay in good favor of the Dark Lord.