Severus Snape

First topic message reminder :

Wow! When searching the internet as I occasionally do! I came across a post from mugglenet of severus snape and a theory of spinners end. It took my breath away and I support Snape!! I know there is a severus snape thread already, though I thought this thread could be of the in depth theories trying to prove to all of you disbelievers out there that snape is actually good!

Anyway, it is quite long, but worth the read.
As taken from a thread at mugglenet.com

Quote :

The purpose of starting this thread is to take a close look at this theory and see if it fits with the events of the rest of the book in a reasonable way.

It’s assumed that Polyjuice produced the change.

It deserves its own thread because it is very focused, but completely alters the import of much of the rest of the book. Posting this theory in a more general thread will only annoy the majority of the people posting there, because (1) this theory is fundamental enough to undermine a high percentage of the arguments they can make, and (2) it’s ridiculus to try and deal with both the mainline angle and a fringe angle (ie: this one) at the same time. I know it annoyed me over on Dev of Sev, getting a fringe-theory take on a post I’d made -- a general thread can’t handle it reasonably.

Why ‘trustworthy’ Snape in the title? Two reasons: Firstly, it avoids overcomplicating the discussion, it pre-empts having to always make two arguments (which no-one will want to do, but will have to do if they care at all about completeness); Secondly, Dumbledore repeadedly insists it’s true, and I prefer to believe him. Lastly, Snape’s actions throughout the series actually demonstrate very clearly that he is 100%, rock solid trustworthy, to see this it’s only necessary to turn the ‘Harry filter’ off --- doubters can make their case here Dev of Sev HBP <http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=60356>, do research starting here Dev of Sev OOP (the posts tend to be brilliant and researched, it’s great reading).

---- ---- what you may not need to know: why I’m here ---- ----
After reading several thousand posts over on Dev of Sev HBP Dev of Sev HBP (and Dev of Sev OOP versions) it became clear that Snape is Dumbledore’s good guy --- I went there looking for info-support of a sadistic streak and instead discovered that I had no idea about the character at all. Just turn the ‘Harry filter’ off.

This confidence makes Snape’s AK look ridiculous, unless one can find a reason that would justify the Snape characters actually following through on such a thing. (want to see? start here: Reason Search) I came up with a few acceptable possibilities (eg: ‘Dumbledore is already dying’, ‘save Snape from the UV’) , but eliminated them all to my own satisfaction (ie: they are not true in light of canon support). So here was a character doing something he would never do (IMHO). On top of that was Dumbledore’s asking him to ‘break his soul’, to help him commit suicide --- that’s also ridiculous (as I said I eliminated all the reasons I considered acceptable).

Having expended all the ability at my disposal, and having still utterly failed to provide a reasonable fit for the parts, the only alternative is to explore other theories --- go to the fringe a bit. To paraphrase, if the simplest explanation doesn’t fit, then start to explore others.

I believe this is a reasonable theory (I saw several choices, but this one looks most attractive).
And it sounds like fun to me.

Also, it is then not too difficult to find a scenario where Snape did not kill Dumbledore, and Dumbledore didn’t ask Snape to break his soul and kill him.
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----

I’m commited to systematically working my way through this theory with it’s originator, Paintball. Here’s his theory =>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paintball
AN INTELLIGENT MAN’S MISTAKES ARE BIG ONE’S

Dumbledore admitted his biggest weakness is when he makes a mistake it is a big mistake. Most people think this admission was foreshadowing his being wrong about trusting Snape. This may be the case, but what if he had already made a major mistake, he knew it, and it was a real big mistake? Not a mistake of emotion, but a mental mistake. One caused by his intelligence and not his emotions. The mistake was taking the unbreakable vow. What has caused me to come to this conclusion?
(1) To begin with, I cannot picture any Slytherin taking the unbreakable vow. It is so out of character for a Slytherin. Now a Gryffindor, not out of character at all. In addition it makes no sense for Snape to take the vow. If he was loyal to Voldemort to agree to give up his post to save Draco’s life would not receive favor with Voldemort. I read all the post on why a Dumbledore loyal Snape would take the vow, and they don’t make sense to me. Why would anyone take the vow? To prove their loyalty. This is the reason JKR wants her readers to assume as Snape’s reason. But the only person to whom Snape needed to prove his loyalty was Voldemort, not Bella. To ease a person’s suffering? I submit this is a reason to take the vow, but one that would be out of character for Snape, but not Dumbledore.
(2) Dumbledore is very gracious, and seems to feel that offering refreshments to a guest is always the polite thing to do. Snape offered Narcissa and Bellatrix wine when they arrived at his house unannounced. In fact, Snape’s politeness toward the sisters is so out of character. When they arrive at the door and ask to speak to him, he replies “But of course.” Not, “About what?” His amusing use of the English language is so Dumbledore like. Example: “Narcissa, I think we ought to hear what Bellatrix is bursting to say; it will save tedious interruptions.” In rereading Chapter 2 the adjectives used to describe Snape’s tone and demeanor is so unlike Snape and so like Dumbledore. The ways Bella’s questions are turned back on Bella are so Dumbledore like.
(3) When Dumbledore first consented to take the unbreakable vow what did he agree to do? “Would you look after him, see he comes to no Harm?” Dumbledore’s view at taking this vow would be that he would do everything is his power to convince him to come over to the good side and to protect him from Voldemort. His plan when told of Draco’s orders was to save Draco by getting him to agree to let the order fake his death like he offered to do on the tower. Why didn’t he bring Draco into his office and offer this alternative sooner. Draco was ready for such an offer at the time of the bathroom scene. His intelligence told him it was safe to take this vow. This is what he intended to do anyway. But, the last vow was added and this surprised him. “And, should it prove necessary….if it seems Draco will fail, will you carry out the deed that the dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?” What was going through his mind, before he made the mistake of saying “yes?” Did he think, it will never be necessary? Notice how the sentence started with “If necessary”, but then the sentence was started over again. Imagine how Dumbledore’s heart sank when he reviewed his actions in the penseive. Did he think, I would rather die then a young child like Draco? I don’t know what he was thinking, but his logic caused him to make the biggest mistake we have seen in the series.
(4) Why was Dumbledore at Snape’s house under the Polyjuice portion? This is the easy question to answer. For years Dumbledore has been trying to interview everyone who had any contact with Voldemort to confirm his suspicion of the use by Voldemort of Horcruxes and to determine how many he made and what they were. He had been doing this without telling anyone what he was doing, not even Snape. If possible, he would not have let the possibility of interviewing Wormtail go past. Possibly, Dumbledore made one of Snape’s assignments to arrange the meeting. The interview was unfortunately interrupted by Narcissa and Bellatrix. What did he confirm from this interview? “After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux.” Harry never told Dumbledore of the contents of his dream at the beginning of GOF. He told Sirius that his scar hurt and Sirius told Dumbledore, but not that Voldemort had killed the old man. Dumbledore knew of the death from reading the Muggle newspapers, but didn’t know for sure that Voldemort had committed the murder. He didn’t offer Harry proof of a memory that would confirm this theory like he did the others. Why? Because the proof to support this theory would have given too much away about the end of the series.
(5) Dumbledore set up the appointment to take Harry to the Burrow at 11:00PM. The guidelines from the ministry had suggested that all travel be concluded by night. This makes perfect sense. I can’t picture Dumbledore making this trip at night, unless a previous appointment had to be kept prior to his picking up Harry. I see no reason why the visit on Slughorn could not have been made in the daylight.
(6) Dumbledore knew Draco was trying to kill him. Without the second part of the unbreakable vow he could have brought Draco into his office and asked him:” Is there anything you want to tell me?” We have seen him do this many times. He then would have protected him as he offered to do on the tower. He must have felt horrible that he could have prevented the harm to Ron and Katie, by stopping Draco. I am certain that right up to the end Dumbledore was trying to figure out a way around the second part of the unbreakable vow.
(7) JKR’s style of writing. She has treated the Harry Potter books as much Mystery as fantasy. In her last interview she confirmed she might be interested in writing mystery books after she completes book 7. It would be so unlike her to have the obvious turn out to be the truth. She has stated that she views book 6 and book 7 has really one book, which means the surprise twist we so expect from her has not yet occurred.
This is just my guess on one part of HBP. I am a big reader of mystery novels and one of the games I play is trying to guess the twist before it comes. I admit I have not been able to guess any of JKR’s prior twist before they come. If I had continued to read HBP and book 7 as one book, I would not have guessed the outcome I am now guessing, It took several readings of HBP to come up with this theory. I would never read the first half of a mystery several times before reading the second half. I think JKR is trying to do something that no other mystery writer has ever done, create a twist that makes sense with a gap of over two years between the first half and second half of a book with every reader trying to guess her twist. Of course her twist could be that the obvious was the answer.

I would like to respond to a couple of points to get started (rather than trying to do them all at once).

Might as well start out with what Dumbledore actually said about himself, because if it is a hint, then it’s supports the idea that an alternative exists =>
Quote:
“But do you think you’re right?” said Harry.
“Naturally I do, but as I have already proven to you, I make mistakes like the next man. In fact, being – forgive me – rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger.” (Dumbledore) (HBP,ch10,p197Am)

I agree with Paintball that (1) this is indeed a hint about something to the reader, and (2) it’s likely something that’s already happened. Notice, Dumbledore actually uses the word ‘huger’ ! It’s not just a ‘big’ mistake he’s talking about, it’s ‘huge’ !!


I also agree with point #2, that it’s not hard to imagine that it really is Dumbledore speaking at Spinner’s End (HBP,ch2). In fact it’s a lot of fun to read it that way – a good bit of humor!

I don’t agree that the politeness is out of character for Snape, though. It’s just not supportable. The the few passages available in the texts with Snape interacting socially with peers actually suggest the opposite. And ‘turning Bella’s questions back on her’ is also very Snape-like, if you ask me. But for the overall argument I don’t think it matters.

On the other hand, I do indeed think it may be out of character for Snape to explain himself to anyone at all. So it’s odd that he would explain himself to Bella. As you mention in point #1, the only person Snape needs to prove his loyalty to is Voldemort.


Motive is a critical consideration, so I like the inclusion of point #4 – Dumbledore was there to interview Wormtail concerning underlying things that Snape knew nothing about (ie: Horcruxes). I think your reasoning is good – straightforward. Let me contribute=>
Quote:
Originally Posted by (HBP,ch23,p506Am)
“I wonder what you will say when I confess that I have been curious for a while about the behavior of the snake, Nagini?” ..(snip)..

“After an interval of some years, however, he used Nagini to kill an old muggle man, and it might then have occurred to him to turn her into his last Horcrux.”

It’s a great point you make that there is little other way Dumbledore could have learned of Voldemort’s killing of Frank Bryce and its connection to Nagini, except from a Wormtail interview. Nice catch Paintball.

An additional support that Dumbledore didn’t hear it from Harry: Harry, in his dream (GoF,ch1), sees Voldemort kill Frank, not that Nagini killed Frank. So Dumbledore has heard something different from what Harry saw. So Harry also couldn’t have told his dream to Dumbledore at some later time (and a time that is not reported in the books). On the other hand, Wormtail was standing right there in the room with Voldemort when it happened, after all, so if the info came to Dumbledore from Wormtail, then why didn’t Wormtail get it right? (ie: Dumbledore tells Harry that Nagini was used to kill Frank) Unknown.

Also in support of Dumbledore’s motive to be at Spinner’s End, there’s the second line quoted above, he says straight out that he’s ‘been curious for a while’ about Nagini. It’s information that he has considered important. And Dumbledore could have coaxed the additional details (mentioned a few lines further on) of Nagini’s behavior out of Wormtail as well (although Snape could know details about Nagini).

But I agree that your own argument is very reasonable as to where his information came from – it came from Wormtail at Spinner’s End. On the whole it fits very well.


On point #3 --- why should Dumbledore take the vow? I think it’s because Snape is supposed to be Narcissa’s husband’s friend (ie: a friend of Lucius), and he believes Snape would want to protect Draco, his friend’s son (just as Dumbledore does), so why not take a vow to help and protect him? No good reason not to. However, then comes the third part of the vow, why would Dumbledore agree to the third part?=>

...continued in next post....

Snape had a hard life as a child I think. His Father seemed abusive in the memories we saw. I think wittnessing that and being the brunt of Jame's and Sirius's jokes and curses at school was the beginning of Snape turning to the darker side.

Yes, he hated James and he is not that struck on Harry because he is his son BUT would Dumbledore let him near Harry if Snape was that hateful? No, he would not because he would fear something happening to Harry. And let's not forget Snape seemed to like Lily, and Harry is also Lily's son. Maybe he is protecting Harry on something he and Lily agreed to. Maybe Snape told Her about the prophecy and he swore to her to protect him!

Why would Dumbledore ask Snape to reach harry occlumancy if Snape hated Harry that much. Snape could have opened Harry's mind to Voldemort but he didn't...why???

Because he is not evil and he does not hate Harry and he wants Harry to be able to finish Voldemort off.

I think Snape turned twards Voldemort after Lily was killed. I think Snape asked Voldemort not to kill Lily as there was no reason to.

I agree he might of had feelings for Lily, but really i'm not sure. I think that if he will redeem himself (and right now I believe he's evil) it will be to tell Harry how to kill Voldy

Well, yea thats true but he isnt purely good either, what I beleive is that he is evil but not purely becasue he does do some acts of kindness I guess, but again I think he is bad and I dont like him but I understand both sides and I think everyone needs to know that he can't be purely evil or good.

I do not believe that pure evil or pure good exists (except mayby possibly with voldemort) so I do not believe that Snape to be pure evil or good as everyone has both within themselves

did I just say that? w/e neway I think we came to an agreement that he can't be pure evil or good. lol

Ok I wanna say, I also read essays and what-not of fans on mugglenet and leaky and I like most of there theories. However I am also a podcast listener and I have recently heard one which made me think twice about snape.

Is he nuetral?

Is he in it for himself? Changing like the tide to whichever side is in control? Does he want nothing else but personall gain? I heard that and It really made sense to me. It would make him not good, not evil, but a drama king, like those girls in my school floating from group to group collecting gossip and information. Any ideas?

hmm i was listening to a podcast the other day as well, thats a good thought Katie but in the end i really think he's gunna be good. In order for him to be clear in anyone's eyes he is gunna have to do sumthin big.


(do u listen to mugglecast???)

YES! i listen to mugglecast, and pottercast..and the leaky mug, there all so awesome!..i dont know, i dont think he can be completely good.... hes done to much, its like the Percy situationm... will anyone let him back?

JK uses a lot of mythology and anagrams within the HP books and I was wondering whether the anagram of Severus Snape is just coincidence or whether it will hold some relevence.

'Severus Snape' is 'Perseus Evans.'

yes, I have heard about that one but I think it is just over analyzing and anyway it doenst speel persues right

With a note for the above comment, I don't think there is anything relevent with that, just more theories

I have come straight to this thread as I love Severus Snape! He is such a deep character and I feel more and more will be unravelled about his character in the final book and I can't wait!

I am afraid that I am a Snape supporter and believe that the actions Snape has shown in the past books, including half blood prince, is all on the terms of Dumbledore. I believe he IS Dumbledore's man through and through, even though I know I am probably in the minority of this thought

Hmm well I just read through them 5 pages and it took forever but I really do not think there is much more to add
snape is good

Even after book 7 I still don't think Snape is good. He was really out there for Lily. Not any one else. In addition, I didn't like to feel pity for Snape because I hated him s much and while I don't hat him that much anymore I definitly wouldn't name my id after him. lol

I haven't forgiven snape completley for what he did in the past but I understand his situation more and feel pity for him.

I understand his situation but I don't know If i feel pity it just seems selfish to me.. idk..

I think the reason he was so unkind to Harry was because he looks exactly like his father so every day he sees him he's reminded of James. If he looked more like Lily I think he would have been kinder to him.

Yeah defintly.. but even if he didn't look like James it would still be a reminder of Lily's love he never had.

yeah, but he probably would have been a bit kinder cause he just hated james sooo much