Veritaserum Discussion Lesson

A few of the other classes have now adopted a discussion lesson around the usual lessons so I thought that we will bring one into this lesson, covering the two main lessons already up.

Please try to complete the other lessons within the potions class as well.

For this discussion please try to focus upon the morality and the pr's and con's of Veritaserum. Please do not go off subject.

You may post as much or as little as you want, though there are 50 housepoints avaliable for this class so make the most of it!

Have fun and good luck!

Veritaserum, I think that this potion is very useful as demonstrated in book four. Do you think the victem knows they are under the influence of it?

I think so. I believe it kind of clouds the mind of the person taking the veritaserum, as Crouch seemed kinda out of it

Im not sure what I think about Veritaserum. It is true that it is extremely handy and would split innocent people from the guilty, but it is an extremely strong potion and it borders upon invasive and playing with the mind in the way that an unforgivable does

If used correctly, then I believe Veritaserum could be beneficial. It could make the difference on whether an innocent person is thrown into Azkaban, however there are complications with this.

Say someone is under the Imperius curse, and murders someone, when given Veritaserum, they will admit they killed someone, because they did, but they may not know they were under the Imperius. So in retrospect, it could be quite difficult to use in terms of differentiating between innocent and guilty parties.

If it is used with malicious intent, for example to find out someone's secrets, then I believe that is immoral and wrong.

Well, ethics will always come into anything, won't it?

Is it right to inlfuence someone so they are FORCED to tell the truth? How is it ok to use Veritaserum, but Unforgivable to use Imperio?

Capital punishment is wrong because it is wrong to make such a decision about someone elses lives. Bruce Almighty couldn't play about with free will. As humans, we have the right to remain silent, and shouldn't that same right be extended to everyone? If so, then why is veritaserum legal?

It would be interesting if they actually had rules on using Veritaserum. For example, you need parent/guardian permission if you are a minor, and if you are an adult, then maybe just for capital crimes that owuld result in multiple life sentences? Veritaserum is, by itself, very difficult to brew, so it would be extremely limited in and of itself. Therefore, the use of Veritaserum in cases should just be limited to that which would end with death.

I wonder if we would have the right to remain silent if Veritaserum was available in the real world? Say you have a missing girl, you catch the person responsible for her disappearance, but the girl is nowhere to be found. Perhaps she's alive, perhaps she's dead. At what point do the rights of the accused have more weight than the rights of the victims? In some states its illegal to keep silent if you have knowledge of a crime that has been committed, even if you played no part in it. Obviously there would need to be restrictions on the use. What if it were like a search warrant? In most cases the police or prosecutors have to declare the items that they want seized. You could have an agreed upon set of questions, have the session videotaped to ensure that the potion wasn't misused. I mean it sucks if you're guilty of a crime but if you're innocent you have nothing to lose. It's not like taking a polygraph that can have false readings, nor is it badgering a suspect into false confession.

That's an interesting idea.

I believe that if it were a life and death situation, like the kidnapped girl, it would be a .... several lifetime sentences, or at least quite a long time..... thus, perhaps it would apply. But perhaps you really have to first convict the kidnapper, and then you can use veritaserum to find the girl.

Perhaps. Maybe they should only use Veritaserum if it's a matter of life and death.

At the moment though, I'm still kind of mad that they didn't think to give Veritaserum to sirius Black. Maybe because there was just so much overwheming evidence against him? I agree with Rigby Dumbledore on the search warrant issue. Perhaps an auror or someone like that could go to the competent (key word) Minister of Magic and then the MoM could decide what questions should be asked and even if Veritaserum should be used at all, considering whatever circumstances that might exist.

And there's also the issue of how long it takes Veritaserum to brew. In OoTP, Snape says that it takes a month to brew... maybe there aren't enough able and nonbusy brewers with in the Ministry of Magic to make so much of the potion that it can be used extravagantly... interesting thought.

The most difficult thing to be is neutral taking parts is so easy but I am absolutly against the use of Veritaserum it's an inominous violation of a persons privacy. As I'm against the death penalty I'm agaisnt the use of Veritaserum the good that's come from it wouldn't overcome the bad of its use!

I don't think I am understanding what you are trying to say. You say that you are against the death penalty, as am I, but Veritaserum could be used to exonerate innocent men and women who are on death row due to false convictions. I don't think the use of Veritaserum is as black and white as you seem to think. I may just be reading into your post incorrectly, please correct me if I am, but, that's what it sounded like to me.

there are things worse than death i consider privacy violation one of them on no account i advise the use of veritaserum wether to clear or to incriminate someone!

I'd rather have my privacy violated than submit someone innocent to the death sentence. I understand how bad the violation of privacy can be, but if its with other witnesses, and signed off, etc, legal stuff, I think it should be used.

we shouldn't have to submit anyone to the death sentence in the first place but anyway i still refuse to use veritaserum we must find other ways to prove innocene or guilt! besides as said before veritaserum it's not infallible

Okay, let's move away from the death penalty aspect for a moment. Imagine a 24 style scenario, that there is a nuclear bomb hidden somewhere in the US or London scheduled to denotate. You catch the terroist who is either responsible or who knows where it is, time is running out, in order to save millions of lives you need to use the vertiaserum to find the bomb- because torture is not a viable option nor would it be necessary if you had a potion that compels someone to tell the truth. The right of the individual is important, and in most cases I would say most important, but now we are delving into the area of the Greater Good. Does everyone deserve the same treatment if it costs the lives and health of others? Put yourself in the shoes of someone that has family or loved ones in the area for scheduled mass destruction, would you still say no?

as I said being neutral is very difficult and i don't believe in doing evrything to reach an end wether is it a good or a bad end. so no i'd still not use veritaserum

Nothing in our society is fail proof, nothing is perfect, for we are not perfect. But I believe that there is something within us that seeks the truth, a destiny that we all must fulfill. To turn your back on the use of Veritaserum is to do nothing, which is something you are comfortable with. You say that there has to be another way to prove innocence or guilt, but what is the solution? Another way may prove to be just as distasteful as verituserum is to you. So my belief is that we need to confront the corruption that may come from using the potion, and strive for a way to use it that would not be abused. We have the perfect tool to seek the truth, we just need to overcome the human weakness to abuse such a tool.

veritaserum is also a way of torture just becuase it's not visible it does not makes it less bad! are you in favor of torture?

I can see how you would consider it torture, because it does force you to tell the truth, or at least the truth as you see it. However I think its a bit naive to put it in the same catagory of physical torture which is meant to cause pain and humilation. I personally don't see the use of verituserum as torture, so my stance on the use of torture is a bit moot.

it's mental torture! your mind is being forced to tell something you don't want to! as i said people just don't think of it as torture because it does not have physical manifestation but the consequences are as severe as body wounds!

I just don't think that being forced to tell the truth qualifies as mental torture. Your mind isn't being toyed with, it does not emotionally scar you for life. Perhaps to a guilty person, or a sociopath, telling the truth would be the most unpleasant punishment in the world, but that doesn't make it torture. If you believe that it's torture, then perhaps if it was used on you then it would feel like torture to you- in your opinion. Its a lot harder to qualify mental torture because not everyone is going to agree that being compelled to do soemthing, like tell the truth, would be any kind of torture at all.

it doesn't matter if it's true or not it's something you don't want to say. besides are we sure it leaves no scar? that the mind is not being battleing agaisnt it? such a complex things the brain is and underestimated it we should not...

You have a valid point, but I think that Veritaserum would have been tested out before it was approved for usuage. Just like with any other drug there could be side effects, if properly tested then they would be known and fixed. We are talking magic here, not some rogue pharmauetical company willing to fry innocent people's minds. So assume, for a moment, that the effects are known (and I highly doubt Dumbeldore would have used verituserum if there weren't) and that it is not emotionally scarring, then we are just dealing with personal preference. I, for one, would consider it torture to have to sit thru the movie Titantic ever again, but the vast majority of movie watchers love that movie. Perhaps the only solution would be to put it to a national vote. Maybe some countries would use, while others would not.

some contries have death penalty some don't! some coutnries still use death by hanging. why do you think Dumbledore never wanted to use it? if to get to a greater good we have to do bad things then we're no better than the ones who do bad things in order to the great evil they want to achieve, just beacuse good is what we want the most it doesn't mean bad is not validated as i said and keep saying being neutral is the hardest things there is. so if i don't suport the use of every mean to achieve an end to evil i can't do it also for good.

WHo said dumbles never wanted to use it? He used it on crouch. and obviously, sevvie keeps some in his lab or something, because he has some on hand when dumbles needs it, and pretends to give umbridge some. the thing w/ crouch was needed, but umbridge was an abuse of power, so he didn't give her the real stuff.

Raisty I don't really see how you are being neutral. You keep stating that being neutral is the hardest stance, but you aren't being neutral in the least bit. You are 100% against the usage of Veritaserum. Nothing neutral about that.

yes there is because i'm againt the use of veritaserum wether to ahcieve a greater good or to do bad stuff...

So you would prefer not to use veritaserum, even if it would condemn you to a lifetime of hell or death? It doesn't seem very practical to me.

If you were neutral you would be taking an unbiased stance. One that could see both the good, and the bad sides of using or not using Veritaserum. You've chosen to not use Veritaserum. I wish we could all be like Switzerland, and not chose sides, but life unfortunately doesn't work that way. Veritaserum is a very important tool that we need to be actively using. It has the ability to save lives, and to exonerate innocent people. Yes, if in the wrong hands, it may be abused. I ask you what can't be? Percription drugs, for instance, such as pain pill are used when someone is in extreme pain. I've had to take them myself when I broke my foot. They were a lifesaver. Now say someone way back when they were first introduced to the medical community had said, "Those pills can be addictive, and habbit forming, so I don't think we should give them to anyone.". Would not giving them be torture? It would in my opinion.

the answer to your question kit is yes. if i had that bleife and if i was willingly to die for it

agatha i meant being neutral to the question good vs bad side not about the use about veritaserum waht i was trying to say is that good doesn't not have more rights to use veritaserum than the good side, you can use it as an excuse for the greater good. so if you aprove it for the good side you can't disaprove it for the bad side. because you are right being neutral in the question of using or not veritaserum i'd let people do what they want

(btw people i'm not expressing my real opinons i'm just trying to give another view on this deabte once everyone was agreeing and the discussing was kinda of dead XD)

I am certainly glad that you shook things up a bit, they were starting to get a little dull. Discussion is good right?

To truly be able to defend your stand on an issue, be it the death penalty, stem cell research, verituserum, etc, you should also be able to understand the opposite side's viewpoint. It just makes your case that much stronger if you can look at both sides completely and then make an informed decision.

When it comes to Veritaserum, I'd say that for both sides would be both helpful and at the same time catastrophic. Imagine if you will, the severity of spilling vital informations to the enemy. And then imagine convicting criminals soley on the use of the potion. Cases solved, criminals punished and lying would practically become a crime. I could see both the good side and bad sides views on it.

I agree with Jesse on this one. There are good and bad reasons to both have virituserem and not have it. Too many people would abuse it if it was still legal. Although it would prove to be a great tool in the final battle against good and evil.

Yeah in the final battle it could be useful, Nancy. Interrogating suspects and prisoners of war..

But also think about what would happen say if you have a vial of that stuff, you get ambushed by Death Eaters, they discover it and force i t down your throat. Then they proceed to ask you questions and you are forced to answer them! That'd be really bad- and in the final battle like that, you could possibly be part of the reason that things might go wrong. Think about it from the enemy's view- scary huh?

Too many people abuse the use of guns, and that's still legal. I don't think its a problem for the whole "legality" issue. cuz many other things, such as the -economy- *cough enron* are taken advantage of.

so if others use it why don't use it as well. Is that the message???

the message i think is that you might need to use it to balance out the forces.

Almost anything in the hands of evil can be abused and used as a weapon. We don't live in a rubbermaid world, we live in this one. Veritaserum is something that can be used for good and for evil, but that does not make the potion one or the other. Staple guns can be used for good and evil, if you really think about it anything can be used as a weapon. So I think the best thing is to regulate the use and making of the potion, punish those that abuse it and continue to find better methods

so you consider veritaserum more a good thing then a bad one, a necessary good then what i want to point is that if the good side uses it the bad side as every right to use it as well wether abusing of it or not, i just didn't thought good'd like to use the same means to reach an end as the bad side...


(please forgive me i know i can be too confusing i just have a hard time expressing my thoughts XD)

Why do you think that the bad side has just as much right to use veritaserum as the good side? I just don't see how its sinking to the bad guys level if the intention behind the use of the potion is of a pure motive. We have all sorts of laws and regulations that make certains acts and objects legal to an extent, but illegal if used outside the law. If the bad side is breaking the law that is hardly the same thing as using veritaserum under strict law.

i was talking from a "veritasrum should not be used" point. and just because we favour good doesn't mean bad's not worthy of the same rights. what's good and bad for us is not the same to the ons one the bad side but it doesn't mean we're are right and they're wrong XD

Actually, if there are strict laws and guidelines set in place then it would mean the the "bad" side doesn't get to use it. For instance if the Ministry of Magic decreed that only Aurors were allowed to brew and use veritaserum then if would mean that if someone other than an Auror were to use it they would be breaking the law.

I've never really thought about it that way, but I sort of agree. Only in the war, there are more like three sides to it: Voldemort's side, the Ministry's side, and Dumbledore's side. And since most of the aurors are blinded like the Ministry, then they might be more inclined to use Veritaserum on people like Stan Shunpike (sp?) where it might just be wasted considering the fact that anyone who knew STan would definitely know that he wouldn't b involved in DE stuff. And sometimes, even the aurors might abuse the right to use it; if, say, an auror really feels that someone is a Death Eater but there is no real evidence. Also, Veritaserum should not be wasted considering the fact that it takes a whole month to mature. Also (god I use that word a lot), aurors are people too so they can also hold grudges. What if it was made that only aurors who show that they can capably brew it (w/out blowing themselves/anything up) and are responsible and only use it for professional purposes can use Veritaserum? sry... I kinda rambled... But in the end, I feel that whenever there are moral issues, it's kind of impossible to make a law that is foolproof. In any scenario, I believe that somehow, Veritaserum always has a chance of being abused.

True, even if it was just the Order of the Phoenix using it you do have people like Mundungas Fletcher who might smuggle it out to sell on the balck market. Veritaserum by itself is neither good nor evil, and anything in human hands can be used for evil intent. So I guess the question is, is it worth the risk that it might be abused? And assuming that it was banned, then that would not mean that it would not be used by the other side.
On a sidenote, I don't think using it on Stan Shunpike would be a waste, since it will set him free, and if the MoM is failing then it is up to us to fix it. I know it sounds lame, but democracy only works if you vote intelligently.

SLYTHERIN

Raistlin The Wizard: 50
Agatha Black: 35
Fated4HP: 20
Snapes_girl: 10

GRYFFINDOR

KatieBellaTrix: 5
Duck the Duck: 15
WaterLily: 15
RhiannonMei: 35

RAVENCLAW

Kit: 45
kitkat: 10
Rigby Dumbledore: 50 + 5 bonus for best student

HUFFLEPUFF